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Thread: A Case Against the First Amendment

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    Quote Originally Posted by nathanbforrest45 View Post
    Actually, while some of your "facts" may be in error your overall assessments are spot on.
    The entire OP is an idiotic screed of partisan clap trap aimed at running down the left again: it means nothing and says even less.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CCitizen View Post
    Most Conservatives and Classical Liberals are strong proponents of Free Speech. Most Progressives are proponents of Totalitarian Censorship of any idea they find offensive. They also support Draconian Punishment of anyone who expresses or hints at disagreeing with their views. Strangely, almost everyone supports the First Amendment. I do not.


    The First Amendment was passed in 1789. It provided Freedom of Worship, Speech, Press, and Association for all free people. Sadly, American Slaves had neither Rights nor Freedom. Russian and East European serfs also had few Rights and little Freedom. Fortunately, for more then a Century, every free person was free to express unpopular views.


    During XVIIIth and XIXth Centuries, the economy and tools of production were simple. Most people were self-employed in craft and agriculture. Tools of communication were simple as well. Most political groups could own a small printing press. Even if some group would have attempted to "cancel" their political opponents by coercing every business to boycott them, they would not have been successful.


    By the beginning of the XXth Century, means of Production and Communication became much more sophisticated and interconnected. Many workers came to depend on their employees for their very livelihood. During the Red Scare of 1917 -- 1920, and more so during McCarthyism 1947 -- 1957, hundreds or perhaps thousands of people were blacklisted for expressing Communist or Socialist views. This was the first instance of Authoritarian rule within the framework of the First Amendment.


    For some time after 1957, America remained a Free Society. Very few people were fired for their political opinions, and they generally could find another job. They were fired for really offensive speech. For instance on August 6, 1965, disc jockey Bob Dayton was fired for joking on air about the 20th anniversary of bombing of Hiroshima.


    During late 1980s and 1990s, Political Correctness came into force. Thousands of people were fired by universities and Liberal companies for disagreeing with Progressives. America ceased to be a Free Society, and became Authoritarian.


    Authoritarianism of 1990s and 2000s was much milder then Totalitarianism of 2020s. During 2000s, I had some conversations with people who have publicly expressed Politically Incorrect views. They told me that they would never apply for a job in a Liberal company since they would not be hired. Nevertheless, they did find jobs with companies that valued Freedom.

    Totalitarian Cancel Culture of 2020s is much worse then Political Correctness of the past decades. Tens or hundreds of thousands of people lose their jobs and careers for slightest offense against Progressives. Many of those who lose jobs are blacklisted. Even though many companies would like to hire these people, these companies are coerced by other businesses into not hiring them. Any company which falls out of line is boycotted by all other companies. Social Media censors speech which offends Progressives. When Parler was deplatformed by Amazon and Apple, almost every American company was afraid to work with Parler. The First Amendment did not prevent American Society from becoming Totalitarian. To a degree, the First Amendment Freedom of Association enables Totalitarianism.


    Is there a possibility that the tide of Totalitarianism will turn back? Honestly, it is very unlikely. I am not optimistic about Conservatives organising fast enough to resist Totalitarianism. Nevertheless, anyone who values Freedom should take every practical legal step to oppose Totalitarianism. Maybe there is a chance.

    1) We should support any legislation opposing Totalitarianism. If there is a proposed state law making Political Affiliation a protected class, we must support it! California, Colorado, New York, and North Dakota have some protection for employees from being fired for some off-duty speech. We should also support any law which would penalize Social Media companies for violating political neutrality. Even if such law is repealed by a high court, every hassle for Totalitarian Social Media is a plus.

    2) Conservatives should help individuals and companies targeted by Progressive mobs.

    3) In small Conservative counties, some businesses may help by firing Progressive workers. Boycotting businesses owned by Progressives or employing them may also be effective. This would be an effective pushback against Progressives. This would also encourage them to support part 1) -- greater employee protections.

    Some great points CC. And you are absolutely correct about the assault on free speech and it's rapid worsening in the past year. I have never seen anything like this or seen American state TV before.
    It's scarry. I am torn on the idea of fighting fire with fire. It has an appeal and yet it also drags us down to their level.
    I now believe the hope, the answer is state's rights. Look at what individual states did this past year? Shutting down economies , restricting free movement and closing businesses. I think we need our own version of that without the blatant Constitutional violations.
    Nullification is the answer. If red states do this more "red people " will move there and more "blue people" will move out. Concentration of like political beliefs in states exerting their rights. But with a national government ( hopefully a limited one) to deal collectively with otjher nations and uphold the Constitution ( I know I'm dreaming on that one)
    One of the effects this would have would be a sort of lib vs con competition to see who's policy brought about the best results with higer percentages of the people supporting that policy in each state and those supporters being the ones funding that policy.

    I'm really a localist but I'll settle for this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CCitizen View Post
    Most Conservatives and Classical Liberals are strong proponents of Free Speech. Most Progressives are proponents of Totalitarian Censorship of any idea they find offensive. They also support Draconian Punishment of anyone who expresses or hints at disagreeing with their views. Strangely, almost everyone supports the First Amendment. I do not.


    The First Amendment was passed in 1789. It provided Freedom of Worship, Speech, Press, and Association for all free people. Sadly, American Slaves had neither Rights nor Freedom. Russian and East European serfs also had few Rights and little Freedom. Fortunately, for more then a Century, every free person was free to express unpopular views.


    During XVIIIth and XIXth Centuries, the economy and tools of production were simple. Most people were self-employed in craft and agriculture. Tools of communication were simple as well. Most political groups could own a small printing press. Even if some group would have attempted to "cancel" their political opponents by coercing every business to boycott them, they would not have been successful.


    By the beginning of the XXth Century, means of Production and Communication became much more sophisticated and interconnected. Many workers came to depend on their employees for their very livelihood. During the Red Scare of 1917 -- 1920, and more so during McCarthyism 1947 -- 1957, hundreds or perhaps thousands of people were blacklisted for expressing Communist or Socialist views. This was the first instance of Authoritarian rule within the framework of the First Amendment.


    For some time after 1957, America remained a Free Society. Very few people were fired for their political opinions, and they generally could find another job. They were fired for really offensive speech. For instance on August 6, 1965, disc jockey Bob Dayton was fired for joking on air about the 20th anniversary of bombing of Hiroshima.


    During late 1980s and 1990s, Political Correctness came into force. Thousands of people were fired by universities and Liberal companies for disagreeing with Progressives. America ceased to be a Free Society, and became Authoritarian.


    Authoritarianism of 1990s and 2000s was much milder then Totalitarianism of 2020s. During 2000s, I had some conversations with people who have publicly expressed Politically Incorrect views. They told me that they would never apply for a job in a Liberal company since they would not be hired. Nevertheless, they did find jobs with companies that valued Freedom.

    Totalitarian Cancel Culture of 2020s is much worse then Political Correctness of the past decades. Tens or hundreds of thousands of people lose their jobs and careers for slightest offense against Progressives. Many of those who lose jobs are blacklisted. Even though many companies would like to hire these people, these companies are coerced by other businesses into not hiring them. Any company which falls out of line is boycotted by all other companies. Social Media censors speech which offends Progressives. When Parler was deplatformed by Amazon and Apple, almost every American company was afraid to work with Parler. The First Amendment did not prevent American Society from becoming Totalitarian. To a degree, the First Amendment Freedom of Association enables Totalitarianism.


    Is there a possibility that the tide of Totalitarianism will turn back? Honestly, it is very unlikely. I am not optimistic about Conservatives organising fast enough to resist Totalitarianism. Nevertheless, anyone who values Freedom should take every practical legal step to oppose Totalitarianism. Maybe there is a chance.

    1) We should support any legislation opposing Totalitarianism. If there is a proposed state law making Political Affiliation a protected class, we must support it! California, Colorado, New York, and North Dakota have some protection for employees from being fired for some off-duty speech. We should also support any law which would penalize Social Media companies for violating political neutrality. Even if such law is repealed by a high court, every hassle for Totalitarian Social Media is a plus.

    2) Conservatives should help individuals and companies targeted by Progressive mobs.

    3) In small Conservative counties, some businesses may help by firing Progressive workers. Boycotting businesses owned by Progressives or employing them may also be effective. This would be an effective pushback against Progressives. This would also encourage them to support part 1) -- greater employee protections.
    Totalitarianism is a centralized, dictatorial system of government that prohibits any opposition parties and requires complete subservience to the state on pain of prosecution, imprisonment or even death. I think you'll find that such a system of government has never existed in the U.S.A. and is constitutionally prohibited. The government prohibits no one from expressing unpopular views.

    Employers, whose economic survival is dependent on public favor, are particularly sensitive to social condemnation. Any employer will dismiss an employee whose actions compromise the success of the company, whether by failing to meet the objectives of the job or by compromising the reputation of the company. In the case of public facing companies, expressions of opinions by employees in the media (social or otherwise) can bring immediate financial consequences, if such opinions result in a loss of custom. This has always been true, even long before the advent of the internet and it is true all over the world, not just in the U.S.A. The advent of the internet, social media and the proliferation of opinionated talk shows simply create exponentially more opportunities for people to carelessly shoot their mouths off before a massive audience. To the extent that they do so publicly and are implicitly associated with any company, they are risking their employment.

    Political correctness (although the term was first coined in the 1930's) has always existed. PC represents the ideological positions of the majority.

    All employment situations are authoritarian by definition. As long as you are providing services for hire, you have a boss or bosses. You do what you are told to do or you get fired. That is authoritarian. This is not a new phenomenon.

    The First Amendment acts to prevent the federal government from interfering in the free speech rights of the people. It has no force with regard to employers and employees or any social sanctions that result from expressing unpopular opinions, nor was it ever intended to do so.
    In quoting my post, you affirm and agree that you have not been goaded, provoked, emotionally manipulated or otherwise coerced into responding.



    "The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.”
    Mahatma Gandhi

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  6. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Who View Post
    Totalitarianism is a centralized, dictatorial system of government that prohibits any opposition parties and requires complete subservience to the state on pain of prosecution, imprisonment or even death. I think you'll find that such a system of government has never existed in the U.S.A. and is constitutionally prohibited. The government prohibits no one from expressing unpopular views.

    Employers, whose economic survival is dependent on public favor, are particularly sensitive to social condemnation. Any employer will dismiss an employee whose actions compromise the success of the company, whether by failing to meet the objectives of the job or by compromising the reputation of the company. In the case of public facing companies, expressions of opinions by employees in the media (social or otherwise) can bring immediate financial consequences, if such opinions result in a loss of custom. This has always been true, even long before the advent of the internet and it is true all over the world, not just in the U.S.A. The advent of the internet, social media and the proliferation of opinionated talk shows simply create exponentially more opportunities for people to carelessly shoot their mouths off before a massive audience. To the extent that they do so publicly and are implicitly associated with any company, they are risking their employment.

    Political correctness (although the term was first coined in the 1930's) has always existed. PC represents the ideological positions of the majority.

    All employment situations are authoritarian by definition. As long as you are providing services for hire, you have a boss or bosses. You do what you are told to do or you get fired. That is authoritarian. This is not a new phenomenon.

    The First Amendment acts to prevent the federal government from interfering in the free speech rights of the people. It has no force with regard to employers and employees or any social sanctions that result from expressing unpopular opinions, nor was it ever intended to do so.
    PC does not represent the ideological positions of the majority - just the loudest.

    The First Amendment applies to the States through the 14th.
    Any time you give a man something he doesn't earn, you cheapen him. Our kids earn what they get, and that includes respect. -- Woody Hayes​

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    Quote Originally Posted by DGUtley View Post
    PC does not represent the ideological positions of the majority - just the loudest.

    The First Amendment applies to the States through the 14th.
    Perhaps I should say, the ideological positions of those with the most influence.

    Even though it applies to the States through the 14th, it nonetheless still only serves to inhibit government from making laws that limit free speech.
    In quoting my post, you affirm and agree that you have not been goaded, provoked, emotionally manipulated or otherwise coerced into responding.



    "The difference between what we do and what we are capable of doing would suffice to solve most of the world’s problems.”
    Mahatma Gandhi

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter1469 View Post
    Aspie. He is autistic.
    I'm treating him as I would anyone else by pointing out where the "facts" he's presenting are wildly incorrect. I have no idea whether or not his autism is affecting his beliefs. (Quite a few members of this forum would appear to be delusional on certain subjects and they can't all be autistic.) If he wants to participate in a forum for adults, I'm gong to interact with him on that basis and not treat him with kid gloves because of his stated disability.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standing Wolf View Post
    I'm treating him as I would anyone else by pointing out where the "facts" he's presenting are wildly incorrect. I have no idea whether or not his autism is affecting his beliefs. (Quite a few members of this forum would appear to be delusional on certain subjects and they can't all be autistic.) If he wants to participate in a forum for adults, I'm gong to interact with him on that basis and not treat him with kid gloves because of his stated disability.
    ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ


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    Quote Originally Posted by Standing Wolf View Post
    I'm treating him as I would anyone else by pointing out where the "facts" he's presenting are wildly incorrect. I have no idea whether or not his autism is affecting his beliefs. (Quite a few members of this forum would appear to be delusional on certain subjects and they can't all be autistic.) If he wants to participate in a forum for adults, I'm gong to interact with him on that basis and not treat him with kid gloves because of his stated disability.
    If only you had included yourself...

    "Quite a few members of this forum would appear to be delusional on certain subjects and they we can't all be autistic."
    Call your state legislators and insist they approve the Article V convention of States to propose amendments.


    I pledge allegiance to the Constitution as written and understood by this nation's founders, and to the Republic it created, an indivisible union of sovereign States, with liberty and justice for all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Standing Wolf View Post
    I'm treating him as I would anyone else by pointing out where the "facts" he's presenting are wildly incorrect. I have no idea whether or not his autism is affecting his beliefs. (Quite a few members of this forum would appear to be delusional on certain subjects and they can't all be autistic.) If he wants to participate in a forum for adults, I'm gong to interact with him on that basis and not treat him with kid gloves because of his stated disability.
    What are you really saying here.....
    Any time you give a man something he doesn't earn, you cheapen him. Our kids earn what they get, and that includes respect. -- Woody Hayes​

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    Quote Originally Posted by DGUtley View Post
    What are you really saying here.....
    .... if you're saying something bad about democrats, you're lying........

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