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Thread: The case against revenge...

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    Post The case against revenge...

    The case against revenge...

    Unfortunately, the dish is best served never.


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    Most awful people never get their comeuppance. The ones who profit from their awfulness tend to become rich and powerful enough to rewrite their biographies as triumphs of hard work or ingenuity. “Politicians, ugly buildings and $#@!s all get respectable if they last long enough,” says Noah Cross, the Los Angeles water baron in Chinatown. He seems like a charming old man, if you don’t watch to the end.


    The idea that the passage of time or a fair system of laws will take our revenge for us is a pleasant fiction that ignores an ugly truth: the desire for revenge is not just the desire to see justice done. It is the desire to show the person avenged upon that they are the weak one, that exploiting strangers and betraying friends is not actually a genius strategy. It is the desire to demonstrate, finally, that being a bad person is a mistake, and that such people are not beating the system so much as living at our sufferance.


    This sufferance is, of course, what separates us from them. You will notice, in your study of the worst people, that they tend to hold a grudge. Nothing they do is ever their fault; they are avenging themselves on the world for a series of provocations that started when they were born. In a historical moment at which such people seem ascendant — perhaps you can think of a public figure who has, in the last few years, succeeded by unrepentantly and even proudly behaving in ways for which he ought to be ashamed — the desire to get revenge is overwhelming. But maybe that is not righteous indignation so much as contagious spread. The best reason not to indulge fantasies of revenge might be that they encourage you to view other people as instruments for proving something — about yourself, about them, about how the world has failed to be. That’s a way to become what you hate.


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    https://www.gawker.com/culture/again...tm_source=digg
    Any time you give a man something he doesn't earn, you cheapen him. Our kids earn what they get, and that includes respect. -- Woody Hayes​

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    Newpublius's Avatar Senior Member
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    I would say revenge is an evolutionary necessity. Its natures way to make you focus on irritants and where possible, to eliminate them. It also deters aggression because those with two ounces of empathy understand that they become the target for retaliation and now need to sleep with one eye open. Who needs that, right?

    And yes, this is a deep seated concept in our culture, eye for an eye and today we defer that punishment to the state, but the state must punish and does so in accordance with the legitimate interest of: deterrence (both specific to the individual and by providing an example to the rest), incapacitation (criminals in prison tend not to commit crimes at least OUTSIDE of prison), rehabilitation (yes, we want prisoners to rehabilitate and not reoffend) and YES, RETRIBUTION (the state acts in a way that satisfies the need for revenge on the basis that if it doesn't do that private feuds will erupt).

    Revenge --- Yes.

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    I have always kept a "list" in my mind of attorneys that I "owe" for one reason or another.
    Any time you give a man something he doesn't earn, you cheapen him. Our kids earn what they get, and that includes respect. -- Woody Hayes​

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    I would argue that there are only two legitimate reasons for imprisonment, viz.:

    (1) To express society's collective outrage over an anti-social act; and

    (2) To protect society from similar acts in the future, by the person in question.

    Sometimes, point Number Two may be moot: If a person was murdered for a specific reason, for instance--and it is highly unlikely that anyone else would fit that bill--this reason would be inoperative.

    But point Number One still stands.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Newpublius View Post
    I would say revenge is an evolutionary necessity. Its natures way to make you focus on irritants and where possible, to eliminate them. It also deters aggression because those with two ounces of empathy understand that they become the target for retaliation and now need to sleep with one eye open. Who needs that, right?

    And yes, this is a deep seated concept in our culture, eye for an eye and today we defer that punishment to the state, but the state must punish and does so in accordance with the legitimate interest of: deterrence (both specific to the individual and by providing an example to the rest), incapacitation (criminals in prison tend not to commit crimes at least OUTSIDE of prison), rehabilitation (yes, we want prisoners to rehabilitate and not reoffend) and YES, RETRIBUTION (the state acts in a way that satisfies the need for revenge on the basis that if it doesn't do that private feuds will erupt).

    Revenge --- Yes.

    If we could replace the word, "revenge" in your post with the word, "justice," I would be (mostly) in agreement.

    Seeking revenge comes from a place of emotion and insecurity rather than logic, and it's highly personal. Revenge is all about retaliating for a real or perceived wrong. Justice, however, is impersonal, and designed to offer the wronged individual a bit of closure while reassuring society that there is a system of checks and balances that protects them.

    Revenge is the incel who walks into a spa and starts blowing away women because he can't get a date. Justice is the judge pronouncing a sentence of life without the possibility of parole for that same incel. The first is an act borne of hatred and retaliation against a perceived wrong (which rarely turns out well), while the latter restores a semblance of balance and closure.
    ""A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul" ~George Bernard Shaw

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    Quote Originally Posted by FindersKeepers View Post
    If we could replace the word, "revenge" in your post with the word, "justice," I would be (mostly) in agreement.
    Well you can replace the word revenge with retribution and that dresses up the word right because even though they are synonyms they have different senses. Yet there is no question that embodied in American jurisprudence is the concept that the state's legitimate penalogical interest is based on incapacitation, deterrence, rehabilitation AND retribution.
    Quote Originally Posted by FindersKeepers View Post
    Seeking revenge comes from a place of emotion and insecurity rather than logic, and it's highly personal.
    But the state needs to short circuit this so that its punishment replaces the private retribution in a way that most reasonable people would say, "I don't need to seek revenge because what the state did to you was enough" And the reason that is important is because if the state doesn't do that in a way where a person feels enough punishment has been meted out (and as a society we're constantly addressing this), the more likely people will engage in personal vigilantism/feuds and the like.
    Quote Originally Posted by FindersKeepers View Post
    Revenge is all about retaliating for a real or perceived wrong.
    https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...nge-evolution/
    "The loudest way to exact revenge is to make a person's gains less profitable. You have reached into their accounting system and changed what they've gained from harming you.

    The interesting thing is that the desire for revenge goes up if there are people who have watched you be mistreated, because in that case, the costs have gotten bigger. If you don't take revenge, there's a chance that people will learn that you are the type of person who will put up with mistreatment. "
    Quote Originally Posted by FindersKeepers View Post
    Revenge is the incel who walks into a spa and starts blowing away women because he can't get a date.
    Uh no, you're way off base with that example.
    Last edited by Newpublius; 08-06-2021 at 03:58 PM.

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    Revenge and retaliation has to be done right so that your victory actually ends up being a positive.
    I'll target people in business that do something stupid, but only if I can do it in a way that makes me money.
    I would not do physical harm as revenge but if I know that they are doing something unethical then I may let that be known. But again, revenge is only sweet if you actually gain in the process.

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    There's a fine line between revenge and retribution. Most cross that line depending upon biases and personal involvement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Newpublius View Post
    Uh no, you're way off base with that example [about walking into a spa and blowing away women because one cannot get a date].
    Why?

    Could you elaborate, please?

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    "The best reason not to indulge fantasies of revenge might be that they encourage you to view other people as instruments for proving something — about yourself, about them, about how the world has failed to be. That’s a way to become what you hate."

    The fastest path to become what you hate is to harbor feelings of hate to begin with. Hate is an emotional state borne out of fear. Anger, jealousy, resentment, revenge etc are all just branches of the same tree. It's a negative state some people experience regularly and is more likely a projection of their own insecure emotional turmoil and lack of control than anything else and not to be confused with justice.

    He who fights with monsters should be careful lest he thereby become a monster. And if thou gaze long into an abyss the abyss will also gaze into thee.
    Friedrich Nietzsche

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