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Thread: Aloy Takes Lara Croft's Crown

  1. #21
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    Peaceful Warriors's Avatar Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    Men spend way more money on video games than women do. So it makes sense that they would invest more money into games that appeal to men.
    You're kidding, right? You have to be.

    Sounds like you're talking about marketing "sex appeal" which has no relevance to the plot or character development, and is just shoehorned in for the sake of pure voyeurism.

    Then you're either just talking about 13-year old boys, or "men" with the emotional development of a 13-year old.

    As women have spent more money on games, companies have invested more money into appealing to women. Markets are not perfect, but they are the most democratic and responsive economic system there is for a modern world.
    Nope, we're talking about matters of taste and aesthetics here, not whether or not the "appeal" is "for men" or "for women".

    The differences between "tasteful" examples of nudity or sex (such as in Renaissance paintings like "The Birth of Venus") and pure gratuity and "filler" really isn't that hard to discern. So why are you treating something so simple like it's rocket science?

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    IMPress Polly (03-16-2022)

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    Quote Originally Posted by IMPress Polly View Post
    Because I'm not a sexist and because the trajectory of developments is proving me right. And also because I have more in common with "most females" than you do, to state the obvious.



    Yes.
    Okay, there's a few problems with your lines of reasoning here.

    First:

    The "games" you're talking about are generally just "casual" games for losers or non-competitive people, and wouldn't even be considered "games" to begin with in the real world of competitive games.

    Real, competitive "gamers" play games such as fighting games, arcade games, simulation racing games and other "esports" games and try to develop high skill at them for tournaments or high score competitions. For example:

    https://www.techspot.com/news/78370-...eal-world.html
    Games like Horizon Zero Dawn are primarily just played as casual, "time-killer" games for people of little to no actual skillset.
    Likewise, video and computer games make up a small portion of media and entertainment. The vast majority of media and entertainment (which includes varying portrayals of sex appeal) is in the forms of music, film, TV, magazines and such. The only reason that "video games" are being viewed in isolation from the rest of similar media is because they're comparatively "new" and "trendy", but focusing on them exclusively is highly inconsistent.

    Second:

    Anyone older than 13 who emotionally relates to "Lara Croft" or similar characters on any serious level is just an emotionally-stunted incel who'd be better off just getting a girlfriend/boyfriend and giving up their childish "games" altogether. Lara Croft has the depth of a character from SpongeBob or a bad Cartoon Network show. There are plenty of prominent men and women from history (e.x. Joan of Arc) or classic fiction who provide much better depth potential as a positive role model.

    Third:

    "Sexist" is just a trivial buzzword with inconsistent meanings (such as "discriminatory" or "exploitative") which has no relevance in our law or the real world, and is often just used by incels and sexually-inexperienced individuals on social media, who are too philistine to attempt any serious aesthetic critiques. Such as no-nothings arguing that such and such a depiction of "sex appeal" in a certain context is fine, while another similar depiction is "sexist" despite the portrayals being nearly identical.

    As far as marketing primarily to men or women on the basis of who one's primary clientele is, that alleged redefinition of "sexism" is a good thing. Much as acknowledging the reality that men in general may be more likely to be into video games or other types of competitive games (e.x. chess) due to inherent differences is also perfectly fine (while not negating the reality that there are individual women who out-perform other men in those competitions).

    The issue of what's being marketed, such as tastelessness in makeup or other advertisements, is a different issue altogether.
    Last edited by Peaceful Warriors; 03-16-2022 at 04:29 PM.

  4. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peaceful Warriors View Post
    Okay, there's a few problems with your lines of reasoning here.

    First:

    The "games" you're talking about are generally just "casual" games for losers or non-competitive people, and wouldn't even be considered "games" to begin with in the real world of competitive games.

    Real, competitive "gamers" play games such as fighting games, arcade games, simulation racing games and other "esports" games and try to develop high skill at them for tournaments or high score competitions. For example:

    https://www.techspot.com/news/78370-...eal-world.html
    Games like Horizon Zero Dawn are primarily just played as casual, "time-killer" games for people of little to no actual skillset.
    Likewise, video and computer games make up a small portion of media and entertainment. The vast majority of media and entertainment (which includes varying portrayals of sex appeal) is in the forms of music, film, TV, magazines and such. The only reason that "video games" are being viewed in isolation from the rest of similar media is because they're comparatively "new" and "trendy", but focusing on them exclusively is highly inconsistent.

    Second:

    Anyone older than 13 who emotionally relates to "Lara Croft" or similar characters on any serious level is just an emotionally-stunted incel who'd be better off just getting a girlfriend/boyfriend and giving up their childish "games" altogether. Lara Croft has the depth of a character from SpongeBob or a bad Cartoon Network show. There are plenty of prominent men and women from history (e.x. Joan of Arc) or classic fiction who provide much better depth potential as a positive role model.

    Third:

    "Sexist" is just a trivial buzzword with inconsistent meanings (such as "discriminatory" or "exploitative") which has no relevance in our law or the real world, and is often just used by incels and sexually-inexperienced individuals on social media, who are too philistine to attempt any serious aesthetic critiques. Such as no-nothings arguing that such and such a depiction of "sex appeal" in a certain context is fine, while another similar depiction is "sexist" despite the portrayals being nearly identical.

    As far as marketing primarily to men or women on the basis of who one's primary clientele is, that alleged redefinition of "sexism" is a good thing. Much as acknowledging the reality that men in general may be more likely to be into video games or other types of competitive games (e.x. chess) due to inherent differences is also perfectly fine (while not negating the reality that there are individual women who out-perform other men in those competitions).

    The issue of what's being marketed, such as tastelessness in makeup or other advertisements, is a different issue altogether.
    First off, I see you're new, so welcome to the forums!

    Your post is certainly interesting, but merits correction on a few obvious points:

    1) The notion that the Horizon games, which are both 30+ hour RPGs, are "casual" games because they're not designed to revolve around multiplayer competition is one that not only I, but most gamers for that matter, would strongly disagree with.

    2) If you seriously think that Lara Croft's fan base (especially that of the modern, de-sexualized Lara introduced in the 2013 Tomb Raider reboot) consists primarily of incels, you clearly aren't familiar with the character at all. That suggestion is just absolutely delusional.

    3) It's not "inconsistent" to focus on the content of one medium at a time in conversation. I certainly don't ignore the contents of other mediums, but video games are what I wanted to discuss on this thread because they interest me.

    4) Only incels "and sexually inexperienced individuals" complain of sexist treatment and representation? I disagree, and also don't see how it constitutes posturing to see double-standards in the way different demographics are often portrayed in media and culture.

    These things said, your other post on this thread makes it clear that there are things on which we can agree, and I'm glad for that!
    Last edited by IMPress Polly; 03-16-2022 at 09:18 PM.

  5. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by IMPress Polly View Post
    Can't believe I just now saw the news that Horizon Zero Dawn has sold over 20 million copies! People naturally make some comparisons to the sales of The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild since the games both belong to the same genre and were released at a similar point in time in early 2017. I would point out though that Breath of the Wild was the latest installment in a franchise that had been established for generations, while Horizon was a new IP at the time. But there's also another way in which Horizon's success stands out: It's now the top-selling video game ever to star a solo female protagonist. The previous record in this category was held by 2013's Tomb Raider reboot, which had sold 14.5 million copies as of last November. A sequel called Horizon Forbidden West is due out on Friday.

    I think the success of both games goes to show the difference that simply investing comparable resources into games about women and girls as one might sink into games about men and boys can make. Statistically-speaking, that ain't traditionally happened. Traditionally, games with a female-only protagonist have had, on average, only 50% of the marketing budget of female-optional games, and 40% of the marketing budget of games with male-only protagonists.* When people can't see them because they're scarcely advertised or they look less impressive than other games, it's no wonder they don't typically sell as well.

    * https://web.archive.org/web/20130321...t-support-them
    The game looks really hard to me. Does she have a melee weapon or is it just the bow?

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