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Thread: Turkeys leader opposes letting Finland, Sweden join NATO

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    FindersKeepers's Avatar Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by DGUtley View Post
    I have said that this to me is reminiscent of Sudetenland, Austria & Poland. The willingness of the non-belligerent countries to sacrifice those countries led to France, Norway, Belgium etc. we have Georgia, Crimea and now Ukraine. You are correct. This could get out of hand. Last time that it did it was because of appeasement.

    Others have said that as well, but other than one country invading another--there are no significant similarities. What should be more concerning is how Biden has escalated the rhetoric until now he's pushing a goal of winning the war against Russia.

    Realistically, though, comparing Russia's invasion of Ukraine to Germany's invasion of Poland is like claiming every time a luxury liner leaves port--it's the saga of the Titanic all over again. There's a good reason why we typically reject comparisons to Hitler and Nazis--and that's because they're over the top. The situation that led up to Hitler's invasion of Poland isn't even slightly similar to Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Hitler had a power agenda--Putin is responding to a failed Minsk II.

    We are now in a proxy war against Russia, complements of the Biden and Obama Administrations.

    It could very easily escalate--but not in the way you're thinking. There has never been an indication that Putin wanted to take all of Ukraine. It's all a lot of fearmongering. Deadly fearmongering.

    It's very easy for all of us to take the superior position that might makes right so let's blow Russia off the map. But, we're poking a bear that has 10,000 nuclear weapons.

    If the US would stop arming Ukraine, Russia would probably annex (with those resident's begging and leading for Russia to do so...) the narrow eastern strip of Ukraine and that's it. It's no big deal if Russia annexes that strip because the Ukrainian military and Neo-fascists have been slaughtering the pro-Russians citizens who live there for more than 8 years now. If we insist that Ukraine retains that strip, we are in effect insisting that those people die. 14,000 have died so far in that small region since 2014. Unless that area can be split off Ukraine, the same thing will continue until they're all dead.

    What Putin is doing is wrong, but what Biden is doing is wrong on a much, MUCH more dangerous scale.

    Be very careful what you wish for, and keep in mind that most luxury liners that leave the port will never be dashed on the rocks.
    Last edited by FindersKeepers; 05-15-2022 at 05:20 PM.
    ""A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul" ~George Bernard Shaw

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    Quote Originally Posted by DGUtley View Post
    I have said that this to me is reminiscent of Sudetenland, Austria & Poland. The willingness of the non-belligerent countries to sacrifice those countries led to France, Norway, Belgium etc. we have Georgia, Crimea and now Ukraine. You are correct. This could get out of hand. Last time that it did it was because of appeasement.
    This is not 1939, Putin is not Hitler, Russia is not Germany and the underlying factors are not the same
    "Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining"----Fletcher in The Outlaw Josey Wales

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    Quote Originally Posted by FindersKeepers View Post
    Others have said that as well, but other than one country invading another--there are no significant similarities. What should be more concerning is how Biden has escalated the rhetoric until now he's pushing a goal of winning the war against Russia.

    Realistically, though, comparing Russia's invasion of Ukraine to Germany's invasion of Poland is like claiming every time a luxury liner leaves port--it's the saga of the Titanic all over again. There's a good reason why we typically reject comparisons to Hitler and Nazis--and that's because they're over the top. The situation that led up to Hitler's invasion of Poland isn't even slightly similar to Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Hitler had a power agenda--Putin is responding to a failed Minsk II.

    We are now in a proxy war against Russia, complements of the Biden and Obama Administrations.

    It could very easily escalate--but not in the way you're thinking. There has never been an indication that Putin wanted to take all of Ukraine. It's all a lot of fearmongering. Deadly fearmongering.

    It's very easy for all of us to take the superior position that might makes right so let's blow Russia off the map. But, we're poking a bear that has 10,000 nuclear weapons.

    If the US would stop arming Ukraine, Russia would probably annex (with those resident's begging and leading for Russia to do so...) the narrow eastern strip of Ukraine and that's it. It's no big deal if Russia annexes that strip because the Ukrainian military and Neo-fascists have been slaughtering the pro-Russians citizens who live there for more than 8 years now. If we insist that Ukraine retains that strip, we are in effect insisting that those people die. 14,000 have died so far in that small region since 2014. Unless that area can be split off Ukraine, the same thing will continue until they're all dead.

    What Putin is doing is wrong, but what Biden is doing is wrong on a much, MUCH more dangerous scale.

    Be very careful what you wish for, and keep in mind that most luxury liners that leave the port will never be dashed on the rocks.
    There are significant similarities. You have a maniacal despot who invaded his third country now. You have those all over the world that are willing to appease him in a desperate hope for peace. History has shown us that this does not work. He has already threatened Finland, Sweden, Poland, the Baltics. Sure, do anything possible.
    Any time you give a man something he doesn't earn, you cheapen him. Our kids earn what they get, and that includes respect. -- Woody Hayes​

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    Quote Originally Posted by Admiral Ackbar View Post
    This is not 1939, Putin is not Hitler, Russia is not Germany and the underlying factors are not the same
    Actually, there are more similarities than not.
    Any time you give a man something he doesn't earn, you cheapen him. Our kids earn what they get, and that includes respect. -- Woody Hayes​

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    Erdogan is a low rent dictator who is desperate to sit at the big boy's table.

    Am I pleased to see you or did I put Orson Welles in my pocket?

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    Quote Originally Posted by FindersKeepers View Post
    Others have said that as well, but other than one country invading another--there are no significant similarities. What should be more concerning is how Biden has escalated the rhetoric until now he's pushing a goal of winning the war against Russia.

    Realistically, though, comparing Russia's invasion of Ukraine to Germany's invasion of Poland is like claiming every time a luxury liner leaves port--it's the saga of the Titanic all over again. There's a good reason why we typically reject comparisons to Hitler and Nazis--and that's because they're over the top. The situation that led up to Hitler's invasion of Poland isn't even slightly similar to Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Hitler had a power agenda--Putin is responding to a failed Minsk II.

    We are now in a proxy war against Russia, complements of the Biden and Obama Administrations.

    It could very easily escalate--but not in the way you're thinking. There has never been an indication that Putin wanted to take all of Ukraine. It's all a lot of fearmongering. Deadly fearmongering.

    It's very easy for all of us to take the superior position that might makes right so let's blow Russia off the map. But, we're poking a bear that has 10,000 nuclear weapons.

    If the US would stop arming Ukraine, Russia would probably annex (with those resident's begging and leading for Russia to do so...) the narrow eastern strip of Ukraine and that's it. It's no big deal if Russia annexes that strip because the Ukrainian military and Neo-fascists have been slaughtering the pro-Russians citizens who live there for more than 8 years now. If we insist that Ukraine retains that strip, we are in effect insisting that those people die. 14,000 have died so far in that small region since 2014. Unless that area can be split off Ukraine, the same thing will continue until they're all dead.

    What Putin is doing is wrong, but what Biden is doing is wrong on a much, MUCH more dangerous scale.

    Be very careful what you wish for, and keep in mind that most luxury liners that leave the port will never be dashed on the rocks.
    It is exactly the same. You are trying to tell yourself that if you let the bully in the region just take one more piece of land then they will be happy and never bother anyone else. You are just giving the bully more courage.
    Let's go Brandon !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by DGUtley View Post
    There are significant similarities. You have a maniacal despot who invaded his third country now. You have those all over the world that are willing to appease him in a desperate hope for peace. History has shown us that this does not work. He has already threatened Finland, Sweden, Poland, the Baltics. Sure, do anything possible.
    But, what Army does Putin have to threaten Finland, (can't reach Sweden), and the Baltics?

    When we are told do anything possible, shouldn't we rather say, do what is reasonable considering the threat. And the level of US vital national security interest?
    ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ


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    Quote Originally Posted by DGUtley View Post
    There are significant similarities. You have a maniacal despot who invaded his third country now. You have those all over the world that are willing to appease him in a desperate hope for peace. History has shown us that this does not work. He has already threatened Finland, Sweden, Poland, the Baltics. Sure, do anything possible.

    It's not a matter of "appeasing" Russia. It's a matter of making the best decision for the people of the world.

    It was never a good decision for Obama to fund and arrange the ouster of an elected Ukrainian president. It was a good idea Trump didn't follow that warmongering path and the world was safer during his tenure. But, now we're back to a jingoist way of thinking and that includes trying to convince the US that this our war.

    It isn't.

    Using the term "appease" is an attempt to shame those who do not agree that the US should become involved. The leftist media has been drawing vague similarities to Nazi Germany, but that's little more than reductio ad Hitlerum. It's mental and emotional manipulation.

    There are certainly reasons for going to war, but this isn't one of them.

    The citizens in Crimea and the citizens in the Donbas want nothing to do with Ukraine, and that's a problem because Ukraine doesn't want to let them go. Ukraine loves them so much they've been killing them by the thousands in the Donbas and shutting off fresh water to the Crimeans. Does that sound like love to you? That sounds like the bully who beats his wife to a pulp and then tells her she made him do it and it's for her own good.

    If those who've convinced themselves that we have to sacrifice our boys for Ukraine get their way--we'll not only escalate a war that should remain localized, we will have signed a death certificate thousands upon thousands of Crimeans and those living in the Donbas.

    We may have already crossed the line--from meddling where we don't belong--to full-out escalation. We may no longer be able to avoid war because the leftists have an agenda and they don't care who dies for it.

    My opinion doesn't mean two $#@!s to anyone, but I'm not fragile enough to be wheedled by those who accuse me of "appeasement," because I know exactly what I think and why I think it. And, appeasement doesn't enter in.

    For those who are being led by a sense of outrage rather than prudence, I would only say -- be careful what you wish for.
    ""A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul" ~George Bernard Shaw

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    Quote Originally Posted by carolina73 View Post
    It is exactly the same. You are trying to tell yourself that if you let the bully in the region just take one more piece of land then they will be happy and never bother anyone else. You are just giving the bully more courage.
    The biggest problem is that most folks don't understand that there are two bullies. Russia is obviously one. Ukraine is another.

    The popular narrative doesn't allow for Ukraine's misdeeds to be known, but it takes very little honest research to uncover them.
    ""A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul" ~George Bernard Shaw

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    Quote Originally Posted by DGUtley View Post
    Everything possible? We know that you would sacrifice the Ukraine. Would you also sacrifice Poland? France? England? Not picking on you, just wondering where "everything possible" ends.
    This is goofy, Dave. You behave as if western European countries have no stake in this or are incapable of fielding armies to counter the Russians.
    Call your state legislators and insist they approve the Article V convention of States to propose amendments.


    I pledge allegiance to the Constitution as written and understood by this nation's founders, and to the Republic it created, an indivisible union of sovereign States, with liberty and justice for all.

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