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Thread: US Marine Corps Quietly Changes COVID-19 Vaccine Policy

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    Ethereal's Avatar Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cletus View Post
    The order is legal because it was an order from the Commander in Chief and it did not violate the UCMJ or any of the laws of land warfare.
    The president cannot force military personnel to undergo medical treatments irrespective of the medical or operational necessity.

    You obviously don't get it, which is why it a good thing you are no longer in the service. Orders don't have to be "justified". They sure as Hell don't have to be justified to some E3 or E4 or whatever you were.
    No, you obviously don't get it. Military personnel are not lab rats. Their rights are limited, not nonexistent, as you seem to believe.

    Military personnel still have the right to exercise sovereignty over their own medical decisions. The president cannot simply order them to undergo medical procedures willy-nilly. There has to be a legitimate medical or operational justification, otherwise it's not a lawful order. Biden cannot just wake up tomorrow and order the entire military to eat 10 aspirins just because. Similarly, he cannot just decide that everyone in the military must inject themselves with a COVID shot just because. He needs an actual lawful pretext for the order beyond simply being the president.
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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cletus View Post
    I would use a doctrine test. Is the request for exemption based on established religious doctrine or is it just some bull$#@! you are making up to get out of doing something.

    There should also be evaluation of your previous conduct. Have you previously done what you are now objecting to doing?

    In these Covid cases, it would be easy. "Have you been vaccinated for other things? Does the established doctrine of your religion prohibit vaccinations?" If they have been vaccinated against other diseases, it should be pretty obvious, even to the Marines, that you don't have a religious prohibition against vaccinations. If there is a religious prohibition against this specific vaccine, which of course is highly unlikely, it should be easy to establish that fact.

    What you have got, and a lot of this started with those prima donna dumb ass SEALs and a bunch of other whiny little $#@!es who think they can decide which orders they want to obey and which they can refuse, not because they are illegal, but because they just don't like them.
    People have figured out how to answer those questions about vaxes. For instance, if the questioner asks about a different vax, then the person claiming the exemption can say "thanks for letting me know, now that I know this other vax also conflicts with my religion, I will request an exemption for that one too."

    Who is the investigating officer to be qualified to judge the religious convictions of any soldier? How will a judge look at such reviews if challenged? Do commanders want their religious test experts off testifying in court all the time?

    The military can create a rational way to evaluate these. But, how effective can they be? That is why the Corps took the course of action described in the OP.

    Regarding the rest about troops, that isn't the direction I am looking at this issue. Lawful orders should be followed. That doesn't get the military off the hook for following the constitution- they can't disregard religious exemptions for vaxes.

    And I am retired. Retired soldiers can and should question the wisdom of this order considering the issues surrounding the efficiency of the vax, the safety of the vax, and the fact that the corps of the people effected by the order are among the group least effected by COVID.
    Last edited by Peter1469; 09-18-2022 at 03:09 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethereal View Post
    The president cannot force military personnel to undergo medical treatments irrespective of the medical or operational necessity.
    Bull$#@!. The President's authority to order service members to receive a vaccine comes from 10 U.S. Code § 1107a and 21 US Code 301, as well as his Constitutional authority as Commander in Chief. He is required to allow for "informed consent" UNLESS he makes a determination in writing that the mandatory vaccination is a matter of national security.

    You don't know what you are talking about.
    “Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue.” - Barry Goldwater

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter1469 View Post
    People have figured out how to answer those questions about vaxes. For instance, if the questioner asks about a different vax, then the person claiming the exemption can say "thanks for letting me know, now that I know this other vax also conflicts with my religion, I will request an exemption for that one too."

    A little late in the game for that approach after he has already been vaccinated for a dozen or so other things.


    And I am retired. Retired soldiers can and should question the wisdom of this order considering the issues surrounding the efficiency of the vax, the safety of the vax, and the fact that the corps of the people effected by the order are among the group least effected by COVID.

    With all due respect, Pete... nobody gives a $#@! about what retired officers think. I am not saying they shouldn't. I am saying they don't.
    “Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue.” - Barry Goldwater

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cletus View Post
    A little late in the game for that approach after he has already been vaccinated for a dozen or so other things.





    With all due respect, Pete... nobody gives a $#@! about what retired officers think. I am not saying they shouldn't. I am saying they don't.
    On the first point, that is actually what people are doing. An example was the flu shot. "You say you have a religious issue with the COVID vax because of X. Well, the flu shot has X, and you didn't object to it."

    "Thank you. Now that I know the flu shot has X, I object to that also on my First Amendment religious rights."

    On the second point. My point is simply that retired people don't have to follow orders and can take on this fight. I never complained about orders to take experimental vaxes in the military. I just did it and Charlie Miked. I also personally know several soldiers who had significant adverse reactions to them. One had to be medically discharged.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter1469 View Post
    On the first point, that is actually what people are doing. An example was the flu shot. "You say you have a religious issue with the COVID vax because of X. Well, the flu shot has X, and you didn't object to it."

    "Thank you. Now that I know the flu shot has X, I object to that also on my First Amendment religious rights."
    They only let them get away with nonsense like that because they are afraid to do the right thing and enforce the order.


    On the second point. My point is simply that retired people don't have to follow orders and can take on this fight. I never complained about orders to take experimental vaxes in the military. I just did it and Charlie Miked. I also personally know several soldiers who had significant adverse reactions to them. One had to be medically discharged.

    I get that. However, people can have adverse reactions to vaccines that have been standardized for decades. There is always a risk when you are introducing a foreign organism into your body. My point is that the President is within his authority to order troops to take the vaccine and if they refuse a lawful order from the Commander in Chief or any Officer appointed over them, there should be severe consequences. We don't get to pick and choose what orders we follow.

    We are not the Dutch Army.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cletus View Post
    They only let them get away with nonsense like that because they are afraid to do the right thing and enforce the order.
    Right. So far all the courts have ruled is that enforcing the order can't include a rubber stamp that says No for these religious exemption cases.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cletus View Post

    I get that. However, people can have adverse reactions to vaccines that have been standardized for decades. There is always a risk when you are introducing a foreign organism into your body. My point is that the President is within his authority to order troops to take the vaccine and if they refuse a lawful order from the Commander in Chief or any Officer appointed over them, there should be severe consequences. We don't get to pick and choose what orders we follow.

    We are not the Dutch Army.
    That is essentially what I said above.

    I suspect that most if not all serious adverse reactions to any vax is due to an undiagnosed autoimmune issue.

    When I got vaxes, especially the two experimental ones I said $#@!ed it. Bring it. Its Miller time at 1700 hrs.
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