User Tag List

+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 9 of 9

Thread: The End of Fukuyama

  1. #1
    Points: 592,293, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 73.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialRecommendation Second ClassYour first GroupOverdrive50000 Experience PointsTagger First ClassVeteran
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    Chris's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    420999
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    180,736
    Points
    592,293
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    25,630
    Thanked 68,574x in 47,449 Posts
    Mentioned
    1939 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    The End of Fukuyama

    Deneen offers an interesting response to Fukuyama found in The End of Fukuyama.

    It was at a conference on “Liberalism and Its Discontents,” the title of Fukuyama’s latest book.

    Fukuyama advanced three claims. I'll look only at Deneen's response to the first, namely: "Liberalism arose in the aftermath of the Reformation as a solution to the wars of religion, and provided a way of arriving at peace and political stability without requiring metaphysical or theological agreement by citizens."

    ...Fukuyama['s]...is the well-worn argument of such theorists as Judith Shklar, John Rawls, and Richard Rorty, and is now repeated in tones of faithful certainty by the liberal congregation. It is liberalism’s original “White Legend,” the story of the benighted times from which true salvation arose in the form of John Locke’s Second Treatise and Letter Concerning Toleration.

    The problem is, it’s a simplistic just-so story that is repeated often enough that it now has assumed the status of Liberal Creed. Careful historical examinations of the period in which the lineaments of the modern state first took form instead show that the “wars of religion” were most often the cover that was used by political power seeking to throw off both the constraining conditions of the Church from above and the limiting power of the various aristocratic forms from below. Many battles of the so-called “wars of religion” were not fought over creed and what liberalism came to regard as irrational and private belief, but rather, over questions of political power.

    While the story of political modernity can be told in a number of ways, a main telling emphasizes the consolidation of political power in a wholly new form: the modern state. In order to advance the modern form of the the state, strenuous efforts were undertaken to extricate the “secular” from “religious” powers (terms which were repurposed for this project). Among the most compact and persuasive counter-narratives to the Liberal “White Legend” Creed is this powerful essay by William T. Cavanaugh: “A Fire Strong Enough to Consume the House: The Wars of Religion and the Rise of the State.” Cavanaugh’s essay is a tour-de-force retelling of the conventional liberal narrative. In a host of details, many gleaned from accounts of prominent historians of the early modern state (such as Richard Dunn and Anthony Giddens), Cavanaugh outlines how this story was constructed to the benefit of incipient liberal actors through both emphasis upon selective incidents and even a wholesale refashioning of the actual motives of the main historical actors. In short, in the effort to forge the modern liberal state - the most powerful political entity ever known in the history of humanity - a story of “limited government” was told that required the cordoning off of “religion” to the private sphere, rebranding what were frequently political battles as religious battles. Not surprisingly, the rise of a Whig polity - the party especially of the modern bourgeoisie and its attendant political class - would require a Whig interpretation of History.

    From another, complementary perspective, among the best stories of this same consolidation of political power remains Bertrand de Jouvenel’s classic book On Power (1949). Contrary to liberalism’s claim that it represents a world-historical advance in the idea of “limited government,” Jouvenel shows in his magisterial book that the modern state assiduously disassembled actual existing “federalism” of the pre-modern era through the dissolution of various competing “estates” - whether clerical or nobility. This centralization of power was achieved in significant part through an appeal to the masses, a “people” who were promised liberation from the old aristocracy. Tracing the same story told in an economic vein by Karl Polanyi in The Great Transformation, Jouvenel explores the irony of how liberation from more decentralized political forms ended consolidating and magnifying the centralized power of the modern state at the expense of decentralized political power that constrained the overweening ambition of central political authority. Yet, appropriating and redefining such terms as “liberty,” “limited government,” and “federalism,” the modern state shrouded its ascendant and consolidated power in what we today recognize as the centralized modern liberal state.

    The main insights of Jouvenel’s analysis were echoed in a powerful and pressing form by Robert Nisbet in his 1953 classic text, The Quest for Community. Like Jouvenel - but now in the wake of the twin totalitarianisms of the 20th-century - Nisbet concluded that the modern state rested upon the dissolution or effectual redefinition of various memberships and communities that once functioned as the main forms of communal identity - family, church, guild, township, college, and so forth. Once sufficiently dissolved in all but a shell, the allegiance of the dissassociated individuals was instead directed exclusively toward the modern state. Whereas Nisbet attributed the rise of the twin totalitarianisms of fascism and communism to a modern “quest for community,” he predicted that the same dynamics would come to affect liberal democracies as well. The modern state - the political form of the modern nation - was the wedding of liberalism’s individualism and centralization....
    One journeys into another world where the great ancient dead dwell, and joyfully mingles with them, conversing, questioning and learning…. One crosses a divide to where the great ancients dwell. -- Machiavelli, letter to Francesco Vettori of December 10, 1513

  2. #2
    Points: 30,156, Level: 42
    Level completed: 37%, Points required for next Level: 894
    Overall activity: 9.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialTagger First ClassVeteran50000 Experience Points
    midcan5's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    71719
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Philly, PA
    Posts
    5,434
    Points
    30,156
    Level
    42
    Thanks Given
    1,216
    Thanked 2,260x in 1,676 Posts
    Mentioned
    280 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    ideology

    I must admit I am never sure what to make of all these words, all this whining, the sky is falling, the land is sinking, oh did I tell you, the sky is falling, there must be a culprit, ah there it is, liberalism, post liberalism, new liberalism, yep, found the culprit now one trillion words later where are we, right where we started, no no, now we know, know what, who to blame, blame for what, the falling sky, our lost community, we lost, no no, we won, won what, freedom, centralization, decentralization, both neither, you sure, yep I'm sure, look at all the words....


    "Political ideology can corrupt the mind, and science." E. O. Wilson

    "I say you don't need religion, or political ideology, to understand human nature. Science reveals that human nature is greedy and selfish, altruistic and helpful." Michael Shermer

    "My feet are firmly planted in my political ideology. To me, it's being authentic in every area, and that includes politics." Natasha Rothwell
    Wanna make America great, buy American owned, made in the USA, we do. AF Veteran, INFJ-A, I am not PC.

    "I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord make my enemies ridiculous.' And God granted it." Voltaire

  3. #3
    Points: 5,083, Level: 16
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 67
    Overall activity: 19.0%
    Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    LWW's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    533
    Join Date
    Jan 2021
    Location
    People's Midwest Republic of Ameristan
    Posts
    993
    Points
    5,083
    Level
    16
    Thanks Given
    232
    Thanked 523x in 342 Posts
    Mentioned
    13 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Deneen offers an interesting response to Fukuyama found in The End of Fukuyama.

    It was at a conference on “Liberalism and Its Discontents,” the title of Fukuyama’s latest book.

    Fukuyama advanced three claims. I'll look only at Deneen's response to the first, namely: "Liberalism arose in the aftermath of the Reformation as a solution to the wars of religion, and provided a way of arriving at peace and political stability without requiring metaphysical or theological agreement by citizens."
    That was just precious being that neither you nor the author understand what a liberal is.
    "Buy a man eat fish, the day, teach a man to a life time! "
    "As one computer said, if
    you're on the train and they say 'PORTAL BRIDGE' you know you better make other plans."
    - Joseph Robinette Biden -

  4. #4
    Points: 592,293, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 73.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialRecommendation Second ClassYour first GroupOverdrive50000 Experience PointsTagger First ClassVeteran
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    Chris's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    420999
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    180,736
    Points
    592,293
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    25,630
    Thanked 68,574x in 47,449 Posts
    Mentioned
    1939 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by midcan5 View Post
    I must admit I am never sure what to make of all these words, all this whining, the sky is falling, the land is sinking, oh did I tell you, the sky is falling, there must be a culprit, ah there it is, liberalism, post liberalism, new liberalism, yep, found the culprit now one trillion words later where are we, right where we started, no no, now we know, know what, who to blame, blame for what, the falling sky, our lost community, we lost, no no, we won, won what, freedom, centralization, decentralization, both neither, you sure, yep I'm sure, look at all the words....
    Look at all your empty words.
    One journeys into another world where the great ancient dead dwell, and joyfully mingles with them, conversing, questioning and learning…. One crosses a divide to where the great ancients dwell. -- Machiavelli, letter to Francesco Vettori of December 10, 1513

  5. #5
    Points: 592,293, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 73.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialRecommendation Second ClassYour first GroupOverdrive50000 Experience PointsTagger First ClassVeteran
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    Chris's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    420999
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    180,736
    Points
    592,293
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    25,630
    Thanked 68,574x in 47,449 Posts
    Mentioned
    1939 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by LWW View Post
    That was just precious being that neither you nor the author understand what a liberal is.
    In America, it ranges from classical liberal to progressive.
    One journeys into another world where the great ancient dead dwell, and joyfully mingles with them, conversing, questioning and learning…. One crosses a divide to where the great ancients dwell. -- Machiavelli, letter to Francesco Vettori of December 10, 1513

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to Chris For This Useful Post:

    stjames1_53 (09-20-2022)

  7. #6
    Points: 5,083, Level: 16
    Level completed: 89%, Points required for next Level: 67
    Overall activity: 19.0%
    Achievements:
    1 year registered5000 Experience Points
    LWW's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    533
    Join Date
    Jan 2021
    Location
    People's Midwest Republic of Ameristan
    Posts
    993
    Points
    5,083
    Level
    16
    Thanks Given
    232
    Thanked 523x in 342 Posts
    Mentioned
    13 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    In America, it ranges from classical liberal to progressive.
    The ‘PROGRESSIVE’ party was funded by Joe Stalin and tried to elect one of his many admirers in the US.
    "Buy a man eat fish, the day, teach a man to a life time! "
    "As one computer said, if
    you're on the train and they say 'PORTAL BRIDGE' you know you better make other plans."
    - Joseph Robinette Biden -

  8. #7
    Original Ranter
    Points: 757,916, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 85.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialCreated Album picturesOverdrive50000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Peter1469's Avatar Advisor
    Karma
    477758
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    NOVA
    Posts
    216,900
    Points
    757,916
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    140,557
    Thanked 128,742x in 82,799 Posts
    Mentioned
    2471 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by midcan5 View Post
    I must admit I am never sure what to make of all these words,
    I am not surprised at all.
    ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ


  9. #8
    Original Ranter
    Points: 757,916, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 85.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialCreated Album picturesOverdrive50000 Experience PointsVeteran
    Awards:
    Posting Award
    Peter1469's Avatar Advisor
    Karma
    477758
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    NOVA
    Posts
    216,900
    Points
    757,916
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    140,557
    Thanked 128,742x in 82,799 Posts
    Mentioned
    2471 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by LWW View Post
    The ‘PROGRESSIVE’ party was funded by Joe Stalin and tried to elect one of his many admirers in the US.
    Which one? Back then the US had one on the left and one on the right. The one on the right died out.
    ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ


  10. #9
    Points: 592,293, Level: 100
    Level completed: 0%, Points required for next Level: 0
    Overall activity: 73.0%
    Achievements:
    SocialRecommendation Second ClassYour first GroupOverdrive50000 Experience PointsTagger First ClassVeteran
    Awards:
    Discussion Ender
    Chris's Avatar Senior Member
    Karma
    420999
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    180,736
    Points
    592,293
    Level
    100
    Thanks Given
    25,630
    Thanked 68,574x in 47,449 Posts
    Mentioned
    1939 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by LWW View Post
    The ‘PROGRESSIVE’ party was funded by Joe Stalin and tried to elect one of his many admirers in the US.
    Progressive Party, in America? Well, true, at one time Democrats called themselves progressives, latter half of the 1800s into the early 1900s. But the FDR rebranded Democrats as liberals and classical liberals had to scramble for a new name, some choosing libertarian, some conservative.

    From the OP perspective, still, these are all liberal, or difference branches or faces of liberalism.
    One journeys into another world where the great ancient dead dwell, and joyfully mingles with them, conversing, questioning and learning…. One crosses a divide to where the great ancients dwell. -- Machiavelli, letter to Francesco Vettori of December 10, 1513

+ Reply to Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts