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Thread: Stacey Abrams says 'no such thing' as 6-week fetal heartbeat: 'Manufactured sound'

  1. #261
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    Quote Originally Posted by FindersKeepers View Post
    LOL

    There's nothing to respond to...

    I've made my position quite clear.

    That you don't understand it says more about you than me.

    It's hypocritical to refuse to do what you demand of others.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    carolina73's Avatar Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLiquidGuy View Post
    If you somehow truly believe abortion is murder, then there is no compromise. You must treat abortion as if it were the execution of an 18 year old. It would be a crime to to kill an adult simply because s/he is the product of rape/incest.

    But I doubt there are many sane people who believe abortion is murder in a literal sense.
    murder
    mûr′dər
    noun

    The killing of another person without justification or excuse, especially the crime of killing a person with malice aforethought or with recklessness manifesting extreme indifference to the value of human life.
    Let's go Brandon !!!

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  4. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by DGUtley View Post
    Murder is a legal term. We have other terms for the taking of a life: manslaughter, homicide etc. You have to have both actus reus and mens reus to be guilty of such crimes - hence, insanity, self defense etc. defenses. I don't know what is in someone's mind when they do such things. To me, regardless of whether it is considered the crime of murder, it is the taking of a life - from conception. If that makes me insane to some of you, so be it.
    You're not insane Dave. You don't call it "murder". And maybe "insane" was a bad choice of words. Let's just say people who call it murder don't understand what murder is.


    “Just say the election was corrupt and leave the
    rest to me and the Republican congressmen”
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    Speaking to the Justice Department on Dec. 27, 2020. Conversation memorialized in then-acting Deputy Attorney General Richard Donoghue’s contemporaneous notes.



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  6. #264
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    Personally I am not an abortion supporter, but I also think a 100% ban is not a good idea, the tipping point for me would be when the child could live outside the mother, I know that is not an absolute date but while I believe it is human life at conception I do not think it is an individual life until it can survive outside the womb. I also think there should be some exceptions but that is another discussion. The states I have the biggest issue with on abortion are below. These states have some of the fewest restrictions if any, and at the same time will charge you if you cause the death of the unborn. I find no logic for them to say if you kill the unborn life in another that's bad, but if you kill the unborn life in yourself, that's OK.California, Illinois, Kansas, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, Rhode Island and Washington.
    "The powers of the federal government are enumerated; it can only operate in certain cases; it has legislative powers on defined and limited objects, beyond which it cannot extend its jurisdiction." James Madison 1788

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  8. #265

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter1469 View Post
    Understood.

    To me it is the Quickening (as it was to the early Church). Prior to that the baby is like an animal. No soul.
    Soul?

    You would base it on whether it has a soul and claim that prior to a certain point in its existence it has no soul and is like "an animal"?

    Have you ever had a dog, Pete? Have you ever looked into its eyes? I don't know about the whole "soul" thing. I don't think anyone has ever really been able to define what it might be or somehow quantify it, but anyone who has ever had a family pet... dog, cat, pig, horse, whatever, knows that whatever it is that people describe as a "soul" resides within them and in many cases, it is much more present and obvious that it is in some people.
    “Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue.” - Barry Goldwater

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cletus View Post
    Soul?

    You would base it on whether it has a soul and claim that prior to a certain point in its existence it has no soul and is like "an animal"?

    Have you ever had a dog, Pete? Have you ever looked into its eyes? I don't know about the whole "soul" thing. I don't think anyone has ever really been able to define what it might be or somehow quantify it, but anyone who has ever had a family pet... dog, cat, pig, horse, whatever, knows that whatever it is that people describe as a "soul" resides within them and in many cases, it is much more present and obvious that it is in some people.
    Yes, yes, yes.

    And no, you're doggie doesn't have a soul. But I would support you killing to protect him.
    ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ


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    Another doctor, female, speaks out: Abrams denied reality of fetal heartbeat which is one of the prettiest sounds in medicine

    ...The heartbeats that she says don’t exist are my life’s work as a diagnostic radiologist. Day in and day out, pregnant women lay down on our examining table, breathless with anticipation. "Is the baby alive?" they want to know. They know they are pregnant, but it is only when the transducer goes down on the perfectly flat belly and the pulsing whoosh-whoosh of doppler sound that is the fetal heartbeat fills the room that we can assure her the baby lives.    

    It is probably one of the prettiest sounds in medicine, and it never fails to bring a smile to everyone who hears it, from mom and dad to physician and technician, and to anyone that is walking by the room. It is a sign of life, and life very distinct from the mother’s. The mother’s heart beats at around 75 or 80 beats per minute, perhaps slightly faster when she’s nervously lying on the table. But the embryo? The embryo’s heartbeat is quick as lightning, and can often be up to 160 beats per minute — or more. A sluggish heart rate is a bad sign. A brisk and regular rate is cause for celebration. 

    When Abrams calls the doppler fetal heart signal a "manufactured sound," she shows a gross lack of understanding about the basics of ultrasonography. Putting it simply, ultrasound scanning of unborn children is the culmination of decades of development of very early work using sound waves (sonar) to detect the presence of underwater objects like submarines. Ultrasound scanners can be regarded as a form of "medical" sonar. Doppler ultrasound, the kind we use to detect the heartbeats of unborn children, works by measuring sound waves that bounce off of moving objects, such as the blood cells traveling through the fetal heart. The computer receives the data which it translates into pictures and sounds, so that we can see and hear what is hidden deep inside the mother’s womb.

    Calling this sound "manufactured" is like calling the X-ray of a hand or foot a "manufactured" image. It is quite true that we don’t have X-ray vision and our naked eyes can’t penetrate human flesh and see the bones inside — for that we have X-rays. In quite the same way, ultrasonography penetrates the mystery of the human body and delivers accurate sounds and images that allow us to understand the marvels that are taking place inside, or in some sad cases the diseases. 

    ...For the "fact-checkers" desperately wanting to give Abrams some cover who claim that it’s more proper to call a fetal heartbeat cardiac or "electrical activity," this is a silly argument which falls flat with any woman who has ever lain on an exam table, waiting for the magic sound to start pulsing through the room, or any man that has been holding that woman’s hand. When the distinctive, delightful, surging and rushing beat fills the air, what we are all hearing is the sound of life. And life is beautiful. 
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter1469 View Post
    Yes, yes, yes.

    And no, you're doggie doesn't have a soul.

    Assuming such a thing as a soul exists, how do you know she doesn't have one?
    “Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue.” - Barry Goldwater

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    The bottom line with me is that f I’m going to make a mistake on this issue, I’m going to err on the side of protecting life.
    When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.“ - Benjamin Franklin.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cletus View Post
    Assuming such a thing as a soul exists, how do you know she doesn't have one?
    Good question. I have seen evidence that creatures less than humans have a collective soul, but that really applied to insects. Not dogs.
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