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Thread: Germany snubs Ukraine’s tank request

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    Germany snubs Ukraine’s tank request

    No Leopard IIs for Ukraine, at least for now.

    I hear that there are about 2000 of those tanks in Euroland.

    Germany snubs Ukraine’s tank request

    Germany dashed Ukrainian hopes that Berlin would finally decide on Friday to send modern battle tanks to Kyiv’s forces, with German Defense Minister Boris Pistorius arguing there was no international agreement yet on the topic.


    Speaking outside a meeting of defense ministers at the U.S. Ramstein military base in Germany, Pistorius said his government had still not agreed to a Ukrainian request for German’s Leopard 2 tanks to aid an expected spring offensive.


    “We all cannot say today when a decision [on potentially sending Leopard tanks] will come and what it will look like,” he told reporters.


    Instead, Pistorius said, he has instructed the German army to “review” how many and which Leopards it could send, so the government can “act quickly” once a final decision comes.


    Several European allies have publicly asked Germany to at least grant permission for other countries to donate their own Leopard tanks — a necessary step because of export restrictions on the German-made vehicles.


    Pistorius said German Chancellor Olaf Scholz still needed to make a decision on these requests.


    Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy reiterated his call for tanks just hours before Pistorius spoke.


    “We have to speed up,” he implored officials gathered in Ramstein. Friday was the moment, he insisted, not to debate details but to confirm one key principle: Kyiv’s partners will provide their modern tanks.

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    FindersKeepers (01-21-2023),montana (01-21-2023),RMNIXON (01-21-2023)

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    Yeah, and I read about the tears this morning......................
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    Now Germany has said it will allow other countries, like Poland, to provide their Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine.

    The German government will not object if Poland decides to send Leopard 2 battle tanks to Ukraine, Germany’s top diplomat said Sunday, indicating movement on supplying weapons that Kyiv has described as essential to its ability to fend off an intensified Russian offensive.


    German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock told French TV channel LCI that Poland has not formally asked for Berlin’s approval to share some of its German-made Leopards but added “if we were asked, we would not stand in the way.”


    German officials “know how important these tanks are” and “this is why we are discussing this now with our partners,” Baerbock said in interview clips posted by LCI.
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    To what end?
    Any time you give a man something he doesn't earn, you cheapen him. Our kids earn what they get, and that includes respect. -- Woody Hayes​

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    Quote Originally Posted by DGUtley View Post
    To what end?
    Presumably so Ukraine can win with tanks they have no training on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DGUtley View Post
    To what end?
    So Ukraine can can opener Russia out of not only Eastern Ukraine, but Crimea as well.

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    Now it seems that Germany will send a company worth of tanks. And the US will send some M1As in the fall.
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    So how good is the Leopard II?

    My Military Experience In A Leopard 2 Tank


    My Leopard 2 Tank Experience: As a former M1A1 Abrams tank commander, I have followed with great interest the frantic reporting on the possible deployment of German Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine.


    Will this tank live up to the expectations NATO and Ukraine heap upon it?
    My Time with the Leopard 2 Tank

    I was a headquarters company commander and battalion operations officer in the 3rd Armored Division (Spearhead) from 1988 to 1991. During my time as a defender of the Fulda Gap, I had the opportunity to command a Leopard II in a battalion live-fire setting with our partner unit, Panzer Battalion 153 in Koblenz, Germany. We operated in a combined warfare environment during which our reconnaissance platoon of Bradley Fighting Vehicles scouted the way for the German battalion to the Baumholder tank range.


    The exercise unfolded during the hours of darkness and in total radio-listening-silence, something that was a tad difficult for us Americans, since we tend to love talking a bit too much on our radios. Meanwhile, the Germans effectively used motorcycle dispatch riders to keep unit commanders and vehicle crews posted on the progress of the movement.


    Live-fire occurred during the morning hours and unfolded quite impressively. The Leopard IIs of the Bundeswehr had no mechanical failures during the extended road march. Their efficient diesel engines were quickly refueled, and the Panzers made ready to roll again. The Leopard’s power plant was louder than the M1’s gas turbine, yet if you were the enemy, the impressive deep grumble of the tank would have made you aware that something terrifying was headed your way.


    Climbing into my Leo’s turret on the morning of the live-fire, I was greeted by the tank’s German gunner, who handed me a comfortable crew helmet. I then met the rest of the crew via the intercom system – in German, of course. What struck me was how clear the German headsets transmitted, compared to ones we used. The commander and gunner’s stations were tight, yet everything was in its right place. The daylight targeting optics proved of extremely high quality – much better than our own. I was able to bring any target into clear vision without much effort.


    Going down-range with the Leo was impressive, to say the least. The vehicle and main gun had great stability, and the crew compartment was relatively quiet. It felt a bit like driving in a Mercedes. The 120mm gun, like ours, hit on point and the draftee-loader was able to feed it without a problem. The 7.62mm MG3 turret machine gun was similar to the famous Wehrmacht WWII MG42, but the crew had to stick their heads out to operate it. This would be bad news in built-up areas and sniper country.


    Bottom Line: Training Will Be Important

    Overall, I found the Leopard II to be a lovely cat. I would have gladly taken it into combat against any foe. My assessment then and now is that the Leopard II is an excellent combat vehicle that continues the tradition of first-class German armor developments like the Panther and Tiger my father crewed in WWII. In the end, however, success will depend on the training of the tank crews, the tactical prowess of leadership, and the ability to keep the vehicles in the fight with effective logistics and maintenance.


    Given the combat scenario in Ukraine, we will also have to watch whether drones and other top-attack weapons will limit this fine tank’s impact. Hopefully, the Leo II’s, most likely coming from a variety of countries, will be in decent shape and ready to be used in the appropriate combined arms environment, where they can unleash their tremendous capabilities. That also means they must be placed in specified main efforts, and not piecemeal. As good ol’ Heinz Guderian, the father of the German Panzer arm, once emphasized: “Clobber them, don’t stroke them!”


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    Personally from what I have seen so far I don't see this war as a 'tank' war. Maybe I'll be proven wrong, but ultimately tanks simply seem to be convenient missile targets in this conflict.

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    Apparently Germany was just saying "USA - You first".

    Now the US is sending Abrams and Germany will send Leopard IIs.

    https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/25/europ...ntl/index.html


    But the problem for the Abrams is that they need jet fuel. However I thought the Abrams was designed to be a multi fuel engine?.
    Let's go Brandon !!!

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