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Thread: The Limits of Liberty

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    The Limits of Liberty

    Like with the Laffer Curve, too little law and too much can undermine liberty.

    The Limits of Liberty

    ...My argument here is that, while the rule of law is an essential public good, the actual number and extent of laws also are important factors in determining whether there will be liberty—and, indeed, the rule of law itself. In effect, too much law undermines not just freedom but also certainty, which is necessary for the rule of law. As the realm of “law” expands, it crowds out human liberty, including the freedom provided by law, understood as properly promulgated rules that can be understood and followed by the governed. Moreover, as too much law undermines freedom and its own proper character, it also tears apart the very fabric of the community in which we must live our lives.

    ...There is no precise, mathematical calculus by which to determine when a definite line between “free” and “unfree” regimes has been crossed. But at some point on the spectrum—between a society without law and one in which all aspects of life are subject to statutory regulation—society becomes recognizably unfree. Too little law may leave us at the mercy of the strong and ruthless. Too much law eventually eliminates that “sphere of autonomy” that classical liberals refer to as the heart of liberty. I prefer to term this space a zone of prudence, because we remain under a duty (and natural impulse, when it is not diverted by sin or other bad incentives) to act in accordance with the broad but fundamental norms of natural law (for example, the Golden Rule). But the point is that the absence of formal law leaves an area within which we may interact with one another and with the associations in which we lead most of our lives. In this zone we may act according to rules and customs worked out with our fellows, consistent with our understanding of our own circumstances, needs, duties, and desires.

    ...A regime that reduces social relations and our duties to one another to a set of laws and legal principles reduces this zone of prudence, potentially to the vanishing point. One may consider, here, recent outcries over wedding cakes and photographs. In several cases, those who bake or take photographs for a living have been penalized by the government for their religiously based decision not to participate in same-sex marriage ceremonies. Whether one sees such refusal as rude, hurtful, or an understandable desire to live one’s professional life in accordance with one’s deepest beliefs, the increasing fact of legal sanctions for decisions regarding interpersonal relations clearly narrows the zone within which one may act according to one’s own conscience. These bakers and photographers have been “legally” made unfree in a very important sense, in that they are being forced to act in a way forbidden by their own moral judgment as they seek to choose for whom they should work. That the unfreedom is imposed and enforced via legal process makes it no less an important reduction of liberty....
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Like with the Laffer Curve, too little law and too much can undermine liberty.

    The Limits of Liberty
    Great post Chris. I have long realized that the more laws the less freedom, but that also some law is essential for any society including a free one.
    Personally I dislike laws/bans that have no real direct victim. For example, the gay couple is not really harmed by a bakery refusing to bake their cake. Nothing a free market couldn't take care of as they go down the street to another baker and some community members may choose to not use that bakery.
    IMO drug laws and prostitution laws are in the category. Plus they don't work. In fact the OD epidemic is largely based upon the uncertainly of the purity and make up of the product caused by drug laws. Addicts are also shoved into the margins and often resort to criminal behavior to support their addiction. For such laws to work they would have to limit access and that clearly is not the case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by donttread View Post
    Great post Chris. I have long realized that the more laws the less freedom, but that also some law is essential for any society including a free one.
    Personally I dislike laws/bans that have no real direct victim. For example, the gay couple is not really harmed by a bakery refusing to bake their cake. Nothing a free market couldn't take care of as they go down the street to another baker and some community members may choose to not use that bakery.
    IMO drug laws and prostitution laws are in the category. Plus they don't work. In fact the OD epidemic is largely based upon the uncertainly of the purity and make up of the product caused by drug laws. Addicts are also shoved into the margins and often resort to criminal behavior to support their addiction. For such laws to work they would have to limit access and that clearly is not the case.
    I'll take that further. You have the right to kill yourself. That means drugs, alcohol, cigarettes or euthanasia.
    The laws should then be to protect others from your actions like DUI laws.

    The war on drugs does nothing but create more deaths. Making something illegal is the allure to kids. Our money would be better supported by real education. Once kids find out that you are just trying to scare them, then they believe nothing that you say.
    Prostitution being legal means that their customers know they report crimes and rids their need to be owned by a protector.

    The cartels in Central and South America would collapse. We could rid ourselves of the DEA and the money would be taken out of drugs. People could grow their own pot. Profitability would be destroyed and the big pot farms would collapse.
    Let's go Brandon !!!

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    There is a never ending battle for how much liberty vs security a people will tolerate. For example a Police State will just about end crime other than the criminal minded who end up running the Government!


    My Revenge will be Success! - Donald J Trump

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    The thing to consider with victimless crime is it does still affect others. Suicide, drugs, drinking, etc all affect family and friends.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Quote Originally Posted by carolina73 View Post
    I'll take that further. You have the right to kill yourself. That means drugs, alcohol, cigarettes or euthanasia.
    The laws should then be to protect others from your actions like DUI laws.

    The war on drugs does nothing but create more deaths. Making something illegal is the allure to kids. Our money would be better supported by real education. Once kids find out that you are just trying to scare them, then they believe nothing that you say.
    Prostitution being legal means that their customers know they report crimes and rids their need to be owned by a protector.

    The cartels in Central and South America would collapse. We could rid ourselves of the DEA and the money would be taken out of drugs. People could grow their own pot. Profitability would be destroyed and the big pot farms would collapse.
    If not collaspe certainly be largely defunded. It's all there but society won't pull the trigger on these things

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    The thing to consider with victimless crime is it does still affect others. Suicide, drugs, drinking, etc all affect family and friends.
    Everything effects others but where that effect is entirely indirect maybe the behavior should not be banned. Plus we suck at preventing access to drugs and prostitution.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    The thing to consider with victimless crime is it does still affect others. Suicide, drugs, drinking, etc all affect family and friends.
    Not society's problem and it happens anyway. Someone that is obsessive or suicidal does not care about legal. I have been exposed to too many.
    Let's go Brandon !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by carolina73 View Post
    Not society's problem and it happens anyway. Someone that is obsessive or suicidal does not care about legal. I have been exposed to too many.
    Perhaps it should be society's problem, just like right to life.
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    And the laws that effect the individual should be as local as possible, rather than centralized in one place. (Federalism)
    ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ


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