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Thread: Necons are worried Ukraine can't win

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    Necons are worried Ukraine can't win

    Necons express their frustration that the Ukraine war will not lead to the end of Russia "as a unitary state." Even leaders in Ukraine think they will loose in the end and may end up no longer an independent nation.

    Necons are worried Ukraine can't win

    Until it decided to confront Moscow with an existential military threat in Ukraine, Washington confined the use of American military power to conflicts that Americans could afford to lose, wars with weak opponents in the developing world from Saigon to Baghdad that did not present an existential threat to U.S. forces or American territory.


    This time - a proxy war with Russia - is different.


    Contrary to early Beltway hopes and expectations, Russia neither collapsed internally nor capitulated to the collective West’s demands for regime change in Moscow.


    As a result, Washington’s proxy war against Russia is failing. U.S. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin was unusually candid about the situation in Ukraine when he told the allies in Germany at Ramstein Air Base on January 20, “We have a window of opportunity here, between now and the spring,” admitting, “That’s not a long time.”


    Alexei Arestovich, President Zelensky’s recently fired advisor and unofficial “Spinmeister,” was more direct. He expressed his own doubts that Ukraine can win its war with Russia and he now questions whether Ukraine will even survive the war. Ukrainian lossesat least 150,000 dead including 35,000 missing in action and presumed dead—have fatally weakened Ukrainian forces resulting in a fragile Ukrainian defensive posture that will likely shatter under the crushing weight of attacking Russian forces in the next few weeks.


    Ukraine’s materiel losses are equally severe. These include thousands of tanks and armored infantry fighting vehicles, artillery systems, air defense platforms, and weapons of all calibers. These totals include the equivalent of seven years of Javelin missile production. In a setting where Russian artillery systems can fire nearly 60,000 rounds of all types—rockets, missiles, drones, and hard-shell ammunition—a day, Ukrainian forces are hard-pressed to answer these Russian salvos with 6,000 rounds daily. New platform and ammunition packages for Ukraine may enrich the Washington community, but they cannot change these conditions.


    Predictably, Washington’s frustration with the collective West’s failure to stem the tide of Ukrainian defeat is growing. In fact, the frustration is rapidly giving way to desperation.


    Michael Rubin, a former Bush appointee and avid supporter of America’s permanent conflicts in the Middle East and Afghanistan, vented his frustration in a 1945article asserting that, “if the world allows Russia to remain a unitary state, and if it allows Putinism to survive Putin, then, Ukraine should be allowed to maintain its own nuclear deterrence, whether it joins NATO or not.” On its face, the suggestion is reckless, but the statement does accurately reflect the anxiety in Washington circles that Ukrainian defeat is inevitable.


    NATO’s members were never strongly united behind Washington’s crusade to fatally weaken Russia. The governments of Hungary and Croatia are simply acknowledging the wider European public’s opposition to war with Russia and lack of support for Washington’s desire to postpone Ukraine’s foreseeable defeat.


    Though sympathetic to the Ukrainian people, Berlin did not support all-out war with Russia on Ukraine’s behalf. Now, Germans are also uneasy with the catastrophic condition of the German armed forces.


    Retired German Air Force General (four-star equivalent) Harald Kujat, former chairman of the NATO Military Committee, severely criticized Berlin for allowing Washington to railroad Germany into conflict with Russia, noting that several decades of German political leaders actively disarmed Germany and thus deprived Berlin of authority or credibility in Europe. Though actively suppressed by the German government and media, his comments are resonating strongly with the German electorate.


    The blunt fact is that in its efforts to secure victory in its proxy war with Russia, Washington ignores historical reality. From the 13th century onward, Ukraine was a region dominated by larger, more powerful national powers, whether Lithuanian, Polish, Swedish, Austrian, or Russian.
    ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ


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    Remember when Russia was doing so poorly and would be humiliated in defeat in a matter of months? Now the reality sets in and a settlement over disputed territories the best option. Ukraine for the most part will remain in tact.

    But if your Russia obsessed you can't let that happen!
    My Revenge will be Success! - Donald J Trump

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    Given the context of this reality in Ukraine. The exact context of the US being in Ukraine via the Biden family bilking and grifting. Of NATO encroachments on Russia. Of the recent taking of Crimea. Of the proxy war and the billions the US is heaving on Ukraine. Of not knowing Ukrainian capabilities nor even Russian plans or capabilities......

    who in God's name AIN'T worried Ukraine cannot win?

    Who would be f'n idiotic enough not to at least CONSIDER Ukraine not winning before you throw money and weapons at them?

    Neocons ain't the kneejerk idiots seeming to dominate foreign policy today, Neocons will ask 'to what end?'

    Why are we involved? What does a victory look like? Does Ukraine want their territory back to include Crimea or do they just want to save face.

    We aren't sending these weapons like Abrams tanks to protect Ukraine, there are now lines drawn, this US weapons and money endeavor is to take territory back and that means igniting more offensives and combat, should the US not at least 'worry' about that?

    What is this "Neocon" bullsh1t, Peter, what in the entire fck point are you making? Who ISN'T concerned for our current path in Ukraine, are YOU worried that Ukraine cannot win given the amount of YOUR tax money Biden and Congress just sent over there? And YOU ain't even a Neocon, we wouldn't even give you the badge or teach you the secret hand shake.

    What in the entire fck?

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    I'm not thanking that thread start. I'm unthanking it. And filing it in the round file where it belongs.

    For the love of God

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    The Truth is Ukraine Can't will an all-out war with Russia, but they can defeat them like the wars in Vietnam, And Afghanistan. just making it such a drain on the finances of Russia that they eventually bow out for public opinion and financial reasons.

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    I'm still sitting here wondering who ISN'T worried Ukraine can't win? Because it's not like this has nothing to do with any of us, We the People Taxpayers are paying for this war with Russia. So again.....given the context of an unending American $ pipeline into Zele's coffers......who on this thread or this forum from Neocon to tulip ISN'T worried Ukraine cannot win?

    Who?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zelmo1234 View Post
    The Truth is Ukraine Can't will an all-out war with Russia, but they can defeat them like the wars in Vietnam, And Afghanistan. just making it such a drain on the finances of Russia that they eventually bow out for public opinion and financial reasons.
    Ukraine faces more pressures than Russia. Russia faces the US.
    Call your state legislators and insist they approve the Article V convention of States to propose amendments.


    I pledge allegiance to the Constitution as written and understood by this nation's founders, and to the Republic it created, an indivisible union of sovereign States, with liberty and justice for all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ransom View Post
    Given the context of this reality in Ukraine. The exact context of the US being in Ukraine via the Biden family bilking and grifting. Of NATO encroachments on Russia. Of the recent taking of Crimea. Of the proxy war and the billions the US is heaving on Ukraine. Of not knowing Ukrainian capabilities nor even Russian plans or capabilities......

    who in God's name AIN'T worried Ukraine cannot win?

    Who would be f'n idiotic enough not to at least CONSIDER Ukraine not winning before you throw money and weapons at them?

    Neocons ain't the kneejerk idiots seeming to dominate foreign policy today, Neocons will ask 'to what end?'

    Why are we involved? What does a victory look like? Does Ukraine want their territory back to include Crimea or do they just want to save face.

    We aren't sending these weapons like Abrams tanks to protect Ukraine, there are now lines drawn, this US weapons and money endeavor is to take territory back and that means igniting more offensives and combat, should the US not at least 'worry' about that?

    What is this "Neocon" bullsh1t, Peter, what in the entire fck point are you making? Who ISN'T concerned for our current path in Ukraine, are YOU worried that Ukraine cannot win given the amount of YOUR tax money Biden and Congress just sent over there? And YOU ain't even a Neocon, we wouldn't even give you the badge or teach you the secret hand shake.

    What in the entire fck?
    Since I am not sure that you actually understand what a Neocon is, although you are an Arch-Neocon, I will answer in general and not to you.

    If you read the articles written by prominent Neocons you will see they are indeed the ones who demand the US fights to the last Ukrainian. They are also the ones that speak of using the war to break Russia up and end it as a great power and perhaps even a regional power. They are also the ones advising we make Ukraine a NATO member immediately. (That would = war with Russia.)
    ΜOΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ


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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter1469 View Post
    Since I am not sure that you actually understand what a Neocon is, although you are an Arch-Neocon, I will answer in general and not to you.

    If you read the articles written by prominent Neocons you will see they are indeed the ones who demand the US fights to the last Ukrainian. They are also the ones that speak of using the war to break Russia up and end it as a great power and perhaps even a regional power. They are also the ones advising we make Ukraine a NATO member immediately. (That would = war with Russia.)
    Maybe I'm confused. There are Neocons and many others who would favor a fight to the last Ukrainian and support NATO membership for Zele and crew.

    Your article stated that those same Neocons worry that Ukraine cannot win.

    I'm saying that is a tad Captain Obvious as I know no one.....Neocon or ivory tower babblers such as yourself or otherwise...who isn't concerned Ukraine cannot win given our current level of involvement. I would think the common taxpayer pouring their monies into Ukraine would worry Ukraine cannot win.

    As for this Neocon and thank you much for labeling me an arch-Neocon, I think that correct. But I don't support this proxy war. Have no idea why we're even involved as I consider it a Euro conflict. Furthermore, I believe Putin has been the only consistent position in this war, I believe Ukraine has asked for this invasion for some time, I believe Russia has plotted this invasion for some time. Now careful...I don't support Putin's invasion here. I just think he's been the most consistent, even if he's been consistently wrong. The United States is all over the map on this one.
    Last edited by Ransom; 01-31-2023 at 06:21 PM.

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    Of course Ukraine cannot win. Kicking Russia out is only a tie.

    When Russia runs out of will power then Ukraine will have what they call a victory. 20% of their country in shambles.

    The US and NATO is trying to outspend Russia. The problem is that Russia is blowing up Ukraine and Ukraine, NATO and the USA are all also blowing up Ukraine.

    How long can Russia try to outspend the USA on weapons. Perhaps if the Biden Military was actually spending the money, they claim they are, on weapons then it would be a more of a contest. Instead they turned it into another slush fund.
    Let's go Brandon !!!

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