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Thread: Marx Was Not Woke

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    Marx Was Not Woke

    In Marx Was Not Woke Paul Gottfried takes on Yoram Hazony.

    It might help to understand that both a proponents of national conservatism, Gottfried a paleoconservative American and Hazony a conservative Brit. So their views will differ, Britain having a deeper historical tradition than the US, but when it comes down to it I don't see all that much difference. Hazony is saying Woke is an updated version of Marxism, Gottfried is saying it's a new iteration.

    Also, keep in mind that by liberalism both mean the term in its broadest sense from right classical to left modern.

    Yoram Hazony provides what is perhaps the best exposition of how the woke left represents an “updated” form of traditional Marxism. His argument, which is ably presented in his book Conservatism: A Rediscovery, is summed up as follows:

    Marx’s principal insight is that the categories liberals use to construct their theory of political reality (liberty, equality, rights, and consent) are insufficient for understanding the political domain. They are insufficient because the liberal picture of the political world leaves out two phenomena that are, according to Marx, absolutely central to human political experience: the fact that people invariably form cohesive classes or groups and the fact that these classes or groups invariably oppress or exploit one another, with the state itself functioning as an instrument of the oppressor class.

    Part of this argument is undoubtedly correct. The form of liberalism that came out of the 18th-century Enlightenment did indeed stress individual rights and liberties, and it placed less emphasis on national and class identities than on individual advancement. This liberal tendency continued to manifest itself into the late 20th century, although liberalism itself underwent significant changes with the modern welfare state and the introduction of universal suffrage. Moreover, while self-identified liberals supported nationalist movements and movements of national liberation throughout the 19th century, to whatever extent they reflected Enlightenment liberalism, they stressed individual rights and individual self-fulfillment.

    ...Unfortunately, Hazony cannot escape the materialist foundation of Marxist historical theory. Marx was not in the least concerned with nonbinary oppression, raging homophobia, or the inherently evil nature of being white. This father of “scientific socialism” focused on socioeconomic antagonisms expressing themselves as class conflict. His historical materialism, however, was overhauled in interwar Germany, as the Frankfurt School and its Critical Theory came onto the scene. This new iteration of the left developed what has been called “cultural Marxism,” and it defined as a pressing socialist task the reconstruction of the bourgeois Christian family. This reconstruction was supposedly necessary to stand firm against the rampant spread of fascism. Among Frankfurt School theorists, attempts were also made to assimilate Marxism to a variant of Freudian psychology; and in Herbert Marcuse’s work, Marxist socialism was fused with the vision of polymorphic sexuality....
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    RMNIXON's Avatar Senior Member
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    Marxism was truly a Working Class revolution and that implies work.

    If they had one good quality over our system it would have been no tolerance for Welfare other than the truly disabled and very elderly. In fact under Soviet and Chinese Communism they will find you a job somewhere!
    My Revenge will be Success! - Donald J Trump

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    OH Carl would have been a fan of using any and all groups like the communist revolutions always do, they just kill them all when they are finished with them.

    those that were trained for revolution are good for nothing else, and are disposed of

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    Chuck (05-24-2023)

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    Labels are labels are labels, what they do is hide reality from the easily led, 'woke' only has meaning if your are among the easily led. When a word comes to mean stop thinking why, it is time to start thinking.


    https://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/160422-Woke
    Wanna make America great, buy American owned, made in the USA, we do. AF Veteran, INFJ-A, I am not PC.

    "I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: 'O Lord make my enemies ridiculous.' And God granted it." Voltaire

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    jes'fuchinwitcha (04-14-2023)

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    Quote Originally Posted by midcan5 View Post
    Labels are labels are labels, what they do is hide reality from the easily led, 'woke' only has meaning if your are among the easily led. When a word comes to mean stop thinking why, it is time to start thinking.


    https://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/160422-Woke
    Woke is a term that has a specific meaning, and was actually originated by the left. When normal people begin using it to mock the left, rightly, they were forced to abandon the term. It doesn't really matter what new fangled terms the left comes up with to describe themselves, it will always be the same sick, twisted ideology. Sick twisted freak means the same thing as woke, And works just as well to describe the modern left. If you don't wish to be continually mocked, you are free to return to civilized society at any time.
    Cutesy Time is OVER

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    Quote Originally Posted by midcan5 View Post
    Labels are labels are labels, what they do is hide reality from the easily led, 'woke' only has meaning if your are among the easily led. When a word comes to mean stop thinking why, it is time to start thinking.


    https://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/160422-Woke

    For once I actually agree with you. You are a good example of Woke.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    For a person that claimed to represent the working man, I can find no evidence that Karl Marx ever worked a day in his life. He was more known as a leech that lived off of others.

    Perhaps that is why his theories failed repeatedly when tried.
    Let's go Brandon !!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by carolina73 View Post
    For a person that claimed to represent the working man, I can find no evidence that Karl Marx ever worked a day in his life. He was more known as a leech that lived off of others.

    Perhaps that is why his theories failed repeatedly when tried.
    "He worked as a journalist there, including 10 years as a correspondent for the New York Daily Tribune, but never quite managed to earn a living wage, and was supported financially by Engels." https://www.history.com/topics/europ...%20by%20Engels.
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    Why Wokeism Is Not Marxist

    ...The core of Marx’s view of human society is the primacy of political economy over culture and the distinction between socioeconomic classes. The individuals who make up a society may be empirically described according to many variables. They may have varying religious beliefs. They could have differing ethnic and linguistic profiles. They likely, in 2023 America, display variation in their sexual attitudes, behaviors, and identities.


    But all of this, for Marx, is secondary. Indeed, “secondary” is not sufficiently descriptive in relaying precisely how comparatively unimportant Marx found all these cultural categories. What matters, according to Marx, is the relationship of different classes to the means of production. Do the members of a class own the means of production—the material apparatus from tools to factories that are needed to produce goods—or do they not? Answer that question, and you know the dynamics of class relations and conflict in that society. Those dynamics determine everything else.

    ...Culture and economics are interconnected in complex ways, but they are separable topics. Some of the confusion of those who equate Marxism and wokeism stems from a lack of clarity on this point. They note that some Marxists in the wake of World War I began to focus greater attention on culture. This is true, and there were factors in the political context of the day that produced this shift. Many Marxists had believed, in the days before the outbreak of the war, that the moment for revolution was ripe in those Western European societies that represented the heights of capitalist development. But instead of global revolution, what arrived was global war on a destructive scale never before imagined. This was followed by the failure of revolutionary communist movements across Western Europe and finally by the emergence of nationalist political movements and regimes in many of those countries that had been stimulated by legitimate fears of communist agitation. Marxist rethinking was required.

    ...Getting this topic right is not merely a matter of scholarly accuracy. The true nature of wokeism needs to be understood to further the fight against this ideology. Marxism once posed a significant danger to traditional America, but at present, it is not a Marxian anti-capitalist left that most threatens our society. It is a wokeism perfectly happy to consolidate progressive business monopolies with massive economic power over individual lives. This includes corporations—especially those controlling communication technologies—that can profoundly shape the ideology of young American minds by promoting the woke agenda to annihilate traditional Western values and morality.

    ...Eric Voegelin masterfully described how much the Gnostic desire for utopia one finds in Marxism owed to the Judeo-Christian cultural ground within which that revolutionary philosophy was rooted, however much Marxists would like to avoid recognizing the fact. Marxism is, of course, a distortion of the proper Christian view of perfectibility, and it is radical in the degree to which it perverts the original. But those of us who have changed ideological positions during our lifetimes might be forgiven for believing that it makes sense for adherents of Judeo-Christian religious principles to leave open some lines of communication with the Marxists. We are going to need all the help we can get to defeat the wokeist threat.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Marx was, however, a rabid racist ... and the intellectual inspiration for Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin. Lenin, Mao. Che, Fidel, Ceaucescu, Pot, Minh and many more thugocrats.
    More 1776, less 1984.
    Make Orwell Fiction Again.



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