Is the Tide Turning on Religious Belief?

[Chris]

The point was addressed - I simply disagree that absent a metaphysical basis, any claim of moral propriety loses all meaning. You are free to disagree with my original response to that statement but not to suggest that it wasn't addressed i.e.:

"I don't believe that. I think that morality still has meaning absent the metaphysical in that the principles that distinguish right from wrong can be reasoned and in combination with the development of a sense of empathy act to guide one's actions."

You disagree but fail to explain an alternative accounting.

From the earliest times ethics derived from a higher authority:



Skip ahead to the French Revolution and the proclaimed denial of this.

[Mister D]

You're confusing nihilistic with nihilist. Atheism is nihilistic in that it offers no account of evil or morality or even meaning in life.

Sure, atheists might find answers elsewhere, though where, that's sort of the point in asking atheists how they account for evil, the most common answer to which it is found in man's choices, which is, at least in the West, derived from Christian views of evil and free will.

I know this will be "arrogant" and "condescending" but this is a pointless exercise. If she doesn't understand by now it's because she simply doesn't want to.

[Dr. Who]

You're confusing nihilistic with nihilist. Atheism is nihilistic in that it offers no account of evil or morality or even meaning in life.

Sure, atheists might find answers elsewhere, though where, that's sort of the point in asking atheists how they account for evil, the most common answer to which it is found in man's choices, which is, at least in the West, derived from Christian views of evil and free will.

You have a unique definition of the meaning of nihilistic, given that it's the adjective form of nihilist which means rejecting all religious and moral principles in the belief that life has no meaning. In fact, I looked up nihilistic in several on-line dictionaries to see whether there was some alternate meaning that comported with your definition and I found none.

Offering no account is not nihilistic, it is not the belief that those things don't matter, it's only the belief that there is no extraneous supernatural origin, arbiter or control for any of it. As I said, atheism for most people is much more existentialistic (if that's a word) i.e. that personal freedom, individual responsibility, and deliberate choice are essential to the pursuit of self-discovery and the determination of life's meaning.

[Dr. Who]

You disagree but fail to explain an alternative accounting.

From the earliest times ethics derived from a higher authority:



Skip ahead to the French Revolution and the proclaimed denial of this.

I don't know what you want. There is no higher authority responsible for the development of morals and values. There is our capacity for reason and empathy and the development of language and writing to inscribe our ideals.

[Ethereal]

I don't believe that. I think that morality still has meaning absent the metaphysical in that the principles that distinguish right from wrong can be reasoned and in combination with the development of a sense of empathy act to guide one's actions.

And what meaning does "reason" possess absent a metaphysical basis? Because all these words - "evil", "truth", "justice", "reason" - are ultimately abstractions. They don't exist in a material sense. You can't measure or observe them. So where do they come from? And what gives them meaning? The only response atheists ever come up with are tautologies and circular arguments.

[Ethereal]

While right and wrong or good and bad may not always be absolutes, if we consider harm as the metric for distinguishing the difference, then despite competing desires, ideas, agendas, and ethical dilemmas, we can generally comport ourselves in a moral fashion.

Who is "we" in this equation? And why would harm be considered the metric for distinguishing the difference?

[Mister D]

Here we go again...nouns, adjectives and verbs oh my!

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/...ish/nihilistic

connected with a belief that all political and religious organizations are bad, or a system of thought that says thatthere are no principles or beliefs that have any meaning or can be true:

That you don't believe this is the entire point. If atheism is true, so is nihilism. That is precisely why you cannot account for evil because there are no principles or beliefs that have any meaning or can be true.

[Ethereal]

Perhaps that's because nihilism is the belief that life has no inherent meaning or purpose. All nihilists may be atheists but all atheists are not nihilists. Most atheists do believe that their lives have purpose and meaning and that morality and values are relevant, so atheism is not inherently nihilistic. Most atheists simply don't believe that purpose, meaning, morals and values have a supernatural source. You would do better suggesting that most atheists are existentialists.

Why does life have inherent meaning or purpose? Just because?

[Ethereal]

"Harm is not evil, immoral, wrong or bad" only if you are a nihilist. All atheists are not nihilists.

That's because they're not really atheists. They have faith in a higher power, but simply don't want to admit it.

[Chris]

You have a unique definition of the meaning of nihilistic, given that it's the adjective form of nihilist which means rejecting all religious and moral principles in the belief that life has no meaning. In fact, I looked up nihilistic in several on-line dictionaries to see whether there was some alternate meaning that comported with your definition and I found none.

Offering no account is not nihilistic, it is not the belief that those things don't matter, it's only the belief that there is no extraneous supernatural origin, arbiter or control for any of it. As I said, atheism for most people is much more existentialistic (if that's a word) i.e. that personal freedom, individual responsibility, and deliberate choice are essential to the pursuit of self-discovery and the determination of life's meaning.

One can be nihilistic without being a nihilist just as one can be pessimistic without being a pessimist etc etc.

So what is that meaning and whereof does is derive? WHat have you discovered? Where's the accounting? Where's the beef?


Henri de Lubac's 1944 Preface to The Drama of Atheist Humanism:



https://www.google.com/books/edition...sec=frontcover