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Thread: Is the Tide Turning on Religious Belief?

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    Is the Tide Turning on Religious Belief?

    Is the Tide Turning on Religious Belief? detects a religious revival based on Justin Brierley’s new book, The Surprising Rebirth of Belief in God.

    The reasoning is based in part on the decline of the New Atheists. Their decline was recently discussed in New Atheism Is Dead. Here we take a look at some details.


    History.

    ...In the first decade of the 2000s, four authors came out with bestselling books that energized skeptics and brought atheists out of the closet. These so-called Four Horsemen were neuroscientist Sam Harris, author of The End of Faith (2004); philosopher Daniel Dennett, author of Breaking the Spell (2006); journalist Christopher Hitchens, author of God Is Not Great (2007); and biologist Richard Dawkins, author of The God Delusion (2011).

    These were “new” atheists because they did not just deny God’s existence in a philosophical way. They were forceful and aggressive. They argued that God, the people who believe in Him, and religion in general are evil. As Hitchens put it in the subtitle of his book, “Religion poisons everything.”

    Atheists rejoiced that their convictions were being aired in the public square. It appeared that atheism had become socially acceptable. With the help of the internet, conferences, and even “atheist churches,” they began to think of themselves as the “atheist community.” And this great awakening for atheists was accompanied by a new zeal for evangelism.

    In 2012, atheists organized a march on Washington, D.C., called the Reason Rally. In this “Woodstock for Atheists,” some 20,000 to 30,000 demonstrators heard from authors, bloggers, and celebrities, and listened to bands like Bad Religion. Richard Dawkins called on the crowd to confront religious people: “Mock them! Ridicule them! In public!”

    ...Thus, the New Atheists became, in the language of social media, cringe. The arrogance, smugness, and condescension of the Brights turned off the general public, the supposedly “not bright.” And mockery and ridicule, which became the dominant rhetorical tactic of the movement, is not an effective way to persuade people, much less create converts.

    Reaction.

    The old atheists—the serious scholars and professional philosophers—disassociated themselves from the New Atheists. One of them chastised the Four Horsemen for engaging with unsophisticated fundamentalist preachers while being unwilling to interact with serious Christian thinkers like William Lane Craig.

    Then, in 2011, at the World Atheist Convention, came “Elevatorgate.” One of the relatively small number of women in the movement gave a presentation on the inappropriate sexualization of women in the online atheist community. Afterward, as she was going to her room, one of the participants hopped on her elevator and sexually propositioned her! When she complained about the incident on social media, a large number of the Brights—including the most prominent of the Horsemen, Richard Dawkins—responded to her with characteristic mockery and ridicule.

    Others came to her defense. Soon there was a cascade of sexual harassment revelations about other prominent atheists.

    Elevatorgate led to a split in the atheist movement. One faction identified itself as “Atheism+”—that is, atheism plus social justice, feminism, LGBTQ+ rights, and other tenets of progressivism. Or, as Brierley calls it, an “atheism-with-moral-requirements.” Other atheists, standing on the principle of free thought, decried this woke agenda with its cancel culture, anti-scientific moralism, and suppression of individual liberty.

    Atheists began spending all their time—and their extreme vitriol—in attacking each other rather than religion....
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    The funny thing is that most atheists may know who Dawkins is, but they don't care a rats ass about what he has to say. He doesn't influence them in any way. The same is true of Hitchens and the others.

    Most atheists, myself included, feel the way they do because simply because the idea of a deity seems silly to them. That doesn't mean they don't respect the religious beliefs of others. Most do and take a "Live and let live, just don't try to shove your beliefs down my throat" attitude toward religion. The people you are talking about are such a small minority, they shouldn't even be considered as representing anyone but themselves.
    “Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue.” - Barry Goldwater

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cletus View Post
    The funny thing is that most atheists may know who Dawkins is, but they don't care a rats ass about what he has to say. He doesn't influence them in any way. The same is true of Hitchens and the others.

    Most atheists, myself included, feel the way they do because simply because the idea of a deity seems silly to them. That doesn't mean they don't respect the religious beliefs of others. Most do and take a "Live and let live, just don't try to shove your beliefs down my throat" attitude toward religion. The people you are talking about are such a small minority, they shouldn't even be considered as representing anyone but themselves.

    That seems to be the general reaction of "old" atheists (what they're called in the article, the ones I grew up on).
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cletus View Post
    The funny thing is that most atheists may know who Dawkins is, but they don't care a rats ass about what he has to say. He doesn't influence them in any way. The same is true of Hitchens and the others.

    Most atheists, myself included, feel the way they do because simply because the idea of a deity seems silly to them. That doesn't mean they don't respect the religious beliefs of others. Most do and take a "Live and let live, just don't try to shove your beliefs down my throat" attitude toward religion. The people you are talking about are such a small minority, they shouldn't even be considered as representing anyone but themselves.
    Christianity is not about a 'deity', most religions have that. It's more about a way of life and has been 'shoved down our throats' for generations. That is largely why we live in one of the freest societies ever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Young View Post
    Christianity is not about a 'deity', most religions have that. It's more about a way of life and has been 'shoved down our throats' for generations. That is largely why we live in one of the freest societies ever.
    It is definitely about a deity. I am pretty sure Christians don't pray to and worship a "way of life". Without a deity, there is no Christianity, yet many of the positive aspects of Christianity would have and actually did come into being independent of the religion.
    Last edited by Cletus; 09-15-2023 at 02:35 AM.
    “Extremism in defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in pursuit of justice is no virtue.” - Barry Goldwater

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cletus View Post
    It is definitely about a deity. I am pretty sure Christians don't pray to and worship a "way of life". Without a deity, there is no Christianity, yet many of the positive aspects of Christianity would have and actually come into beind independent of the religion.
    The "Golden Rule" in Christianity is "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and that's just what we all strive to do. And we do that with little concern about God. It's like second nature to us now but it wasn't always that way.

    Those who want to invest further will then look more towards God, the Bible, spirituality, etc. just as Muslims, Hindus and others do. But Christianity is associated with more advanced first world countries and, I would say, with good reason. The Golden Rule, inspired by Jesus Christ, is why.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cletus View Post
    It is definitely about a deity. I am pretty sure Christians don't pray to and worship a "way of life". Without a deity, there is no Christianity, yet many of the positive aspects of Christianity would have and actually come into beind independent of the religion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Young View Post
    The "Golden Rule" in Christianity is "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and that's just what we all strive to do. And we do that with little concern about God. It's like second nature to us now but it wasn't always that way.

    Those who want to invest further will then look more towards God, the Bible, spirituality, etc. just as Muslims, Hindus and others do. But Christianity is associated with more advanced first world countries and, I would say, with good reason. The Golden Rule, inspired by Jesus Christ, is why.

    You're probably both right. Christianity, as I understand it, is about deity and about the Golden Rule. Matthew 22:37-40 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”


    Still this is a thread about the New Atheists and their decline. I guess the title is confusing but that's the title of the piece from which I took only the decline and its reasons. That decline is not cause for a "turning tide" though perhaps a necessary condition, certainly not a sufficient cause.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Young View Post
    The "Golden Rule" in Christianity is "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" and that's just what we all strive to do. And we do that with little concern about God. It's like second nature to us now but it wasn't always that way.

    Those who want to invest further will then look more towards God, the Bible, spirituality, etc. just as Muslims, Hindus and others do. But Christianity is associated with more advanced first world countries and, I would say, with good reason. The Golden Rule, inspired by Jesus Christ, is why.
    You forgot the first part of the Golden Rule. "Love your God with all of your heart and all of your soul, and Treat others the way that you would have them treat you"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carl Young View Post
    Christianity is not about a 'deity', most religions have that. It's more about a way of life and has been 'shoved down our throats' for generations. That is largely why we live in one of the freest societies ever.
    Yes we do, but it is as much despite the efforts of Christians as it is due to their efforts. You mentioned "generations"; it isn't so much the case today, but for many generations, for nearly two centuries in fact, a citizen's freedoms were limited to those freedoms the churches, in alliance with the State, thought that they should have and no more.

    Police departments, prosecutors, legislators and government bureaucrats at all levels looked to their communities' religious leaders (almost exclusively Christian) to inform them regarding which literary works, films, plays and other public performances people should be permitted to publish, distribute or otherwise make available to the public. The temperance movement had its beginnings in the Protestant churches, and the notion that the State should ban that which those Christians viewed as evil - the consumption of alcoholic beverages - led directly to Prohibition.

    Christian groups have been instrumental in making it unlawful in many places for a store owner to conduct business on the Christian Sabbath, and for non-Christians to hold public office or to work as a schoolteacher. More recently, Christian groups have been in the forefront of efforts to keep making their religious views on marriage enforceable on the general public.

    So yes, we do live in one of the freest societies ever, but many Americans are considerably freer today than they were twenty years ago, and far and away freer than their ancestors were eighty, a hundred, a hundred and twenty years ago. And rather than being the benefactors of that freedom, many - not all, certainly, but many - Christians were fighting it tooth and nail.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Standing Wolf View Post
    Yes we do, but it is as much despite the efforts of Christians as it is due to their efforts. You mentioned "generations"; it isn't so much the case today, but for many generations, for nearly two centuries in fact, a citizen's freedoms were limited to those freedoms the churches, in alliance with the State, thought that they should have and no more.

    Police departments, prosecutors, legislators and government bureaucrats at all levels looked to their communities' religious leaders (almost exclusively Christian) to inform them regarding which literary works, films, plays and other public performances people should be permitted to publish, distribute or otherwise make available to the public. The temperance movement had its beginnings in the Protestant churches, and the notion that the State should ban that which those Christians viewed as evil - the consumption of alcoholic beverages - led directly to Prohibition.

    Christian groups have been instrumental in making it unlawful in many places for a store owner to conduct business on the Christian Sabbath, and for non-Christians to hold public office or to work as a schoolteacher. More recently, Christian groups have been in the forefront of efforts to keep making their religious views on marriage enforceable on the general public.

    So yes, we do live in one of the freest societies ever, but many Americans are considerably freer today than they were twenty years ago, and far and away freer than their ancestors were eighty, a hundred, a hundred and twenty years ago. And rather than being the benefactors of that freedom, many - not all, certainly, but many - Christians were fighting it tooth and nail.
    Religion, and I think it's safe to say, was required at one time to keep the tribe in check, to prevent them from murdering each other, stealing their property, and so on. Since no police were available other means were required and creating a God to establish social rules seemed a good alternative.

    Christianity is one of the better religions to emerge from this system and has created much good in the world.

    However it's difficult to defend Christianity without knowing what we're defending it against.

    If there are other religions, societies or cultures which have done better without the Christian influences then lets have a look at them.

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