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Thread: Jesus' Life Post-Crucifixion

  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by FindersKeepers View Post
    Neither do you, obviously.

    But, one thing I know -- Islam in general does not think Jesus survived the crucifixion.

    So Islam, you say, accepts the divinity of Jesus. No, only his historicity as a Prophet.

    As for this "survival" Islam is mixed.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Quote Originally Posted by FindersKeepers View Post
    Stop trolling. You already announced you had no interest. If you can't discuss intellectually, you're not welcome on my thread.
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  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    So Islam, you say, accepts the divinity of Jesus. No, only his historicity as a Prophet.

    As for this "survival" Islam is mixed.

    No. I don't say that at all.

    The divinity concept of Jesus is not based on his being crucified. It's based on the Trinity.

    That was a tough time to live in, and Jesus wasn't the only person to be crucified. Crucifixion and divinity aren't mutually exclusive.

    You did, however, encourage me to do a little more research on the Ahmadiyya Muslims (the ones who think Jesus survived the crucifixion), and I found there are many more than I initially thought.

    The Ahmadis have a strong missionary tradition, having formed the first Muslim missionary organization to arrive in Britain and other Western countries.[22] Currently, the community is led by its caliph, Mirza Masroor Ahmad, and is estimated to number between 10 and 20 million worldwide.[23][24][25]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmadiyya

    So -- a little bit bigger than D thought.

    Interestingly enough, the Ahmadis are not allowed in Mecca. Maybe because they base some of their beliefs on biblical scripture? I don't know about that but here are the scriptures listed as reasons why they think Jesus didn't die on the cross.

    Biblical sources

    1. Jesus had prophesied that his fate would be like that of Jonah (the story of Jonah is one of survival).[22]
    2. Jesus was placed on the cross for only a few hours. Death by crucifixion usually takes several days. While he was on the cross his legs were left intact, and not broken as was the normal procedure. This would have prevented death by respiratory distress. As blood and water were reported to have 'gushed' from the spear wound, this was sign of a beating heart.
    3. Jesus prayed to be rescued from death on the cross. [23]
    4. Pilate, having sympathy for Jesus, secretly devised to save him by setting his Crucifixion shortly before Sabbath day.
    5. The Gospel of John records that Nicodemus brought myrrh and aloes.[24] These healing plants, particularly aloe plants, are considered medicinal and applied to wounds. It would make little sense applying them to a dead body.
    6. According to the Bible "He that is hanged is accursed of God.";[25] something Paul imputed to Jesus.[26] However, since the word "curse" would signify a satanic connection, divine antipathy and displeasure, spiritual impurity, faithlessness and disobedience to God; Jesus' being from God and the beloved of God, does not allow for him to have become accursed at any moment and therefore for him to have died on a cross.
    7. After he had awoken from his swoon ("resurrection"), Jesus bared his wounds to Thomas,[27] showing he did not have a supernatural, resurrected body, but a wounded human body. He was also seen in the flesh by a large number of his followers, baring the same wounds that he had suffered from his ordeal on the Cross. [28]
    8. After his wounds had sufficiently healed Jesus left the tomb and met some of his disciples and had his food with them and walked from Jerusalem to Galilee. [29]
    9. In his post-crucifixion appearances, Jesus left the tomb in the darkness of night;[30] he appears to have been moving away from the source of danger;[31] he showed himself only to his disciples, people whom he trusted and not the general public;[32] and met them under the cover of darkness at night.[33] This behaviour is uncharacteristic of one who had just miraculously succeeded in defying death at the hands of his enemies, having been given a new eternal life with an immortal physical body, and is more consistent with one who had just survived it and was avoiding their (that is both the government agencies and the public) notice lest he be recaptured.
    10. Jesus stated that he was sent only for the "lost sheep of the house of Israel"[34] and prophesied that he would go to seek out the Lost Ten Tribes of Israel (residing beyond the Palestine region).[35] The Jews of Jesus's time believed that the Lost Tribes of Israel had become dispersed in different lands. [36]
    11. When Joseph requested Jesus' body from the cross,[37] Pilate asked a centurion if Jesus was already dead.[38] The centurion confirmed that Jesus was already dead.[39] This centurion was a believer that Jesus was the son of God.[40]
    12. There are no accounts in the gospel of Jesus ascending into the heavens, aside from accounts that were absent from the earliest written gospels.
    ""A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul" ~George Bernard Shaw

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    Quote Originally Posted by FindersKeepers View Post
    No. I don't say that at all....
    It's difficult to discuss anything because your replies lack coherence with posts you reply to. I post about Islam accepting the historicity but not the divinity of Jesus and you disagree thus my assuming you think the opposite. But as the elided part of your post demonstrates you're quoting but not responding to the quoted post but rambling on about some newly googled stuff.


    I'd comment that "Jesus wasn't the only person to be crucified" accepts the historicity of Jesus but you'll disagree and wander off into something else like "The divinity concept of Jesus is not based on his being crucified" which no one even said.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    It's difficult to discuss anything because your replies lack coherence with posts you reply to. I post about Islam accepting the historicity but not the divinity of Jesus and you disagree thus my assuming you think the opposite. But as the elided part of your post demonstrates you're quoting but not responding to the quoted post but rambling on about some newly googled stuff.

    I think the problem lies in your lack of religious knowledge, and I don't say that to be mean. It's just that divinity means a certain thing -- and a prophet (which is what Islam thinks Jesus was) does not qualify. The Old Testament has many prophets but they are not considered divine. Being a member of the Triune is required for divinity. Muslims don't accept that.


    I'd comment that "Jesus wasn't the only person to be crucified" accepts the historicity of Jesus but you'll disagree and wander off into something else like "The divinity concept of Jesus is not based on his being crucified" which no one even said.
    You were drawing a parallel between Muslims thinking Jesus was crucified and Jesus being divine.

    I was just pointing out that doesn't work that way.




    I said -- "...Islam in general does not think Jesus survived the crucifixion."

    You responded with, "So Islam, you say, accepts the divinity of Jesus."



    Based on my comment about Islam not thinking Jesus survived, why would you think Islam then accepted the divinity of Jesus? Am I reading your comment wrong? Did you mean something else?

    Believing Jesus was crucified has nothing to do with Jesus being divine. They just think he was a prophet who was executed.
    ""A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul" ~George Bernard Shaw

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    Quote Originally Posted by FindersKeepers View Post
    I think the problem lies in your lack of religious knowledge, and I don't say that to be mean. It's just that divinity means a certain thing -- and a prophet (which is what Islam thinks Jesus was) does not qualify. The Old Testament has many prophets but they are not considered divine. Being a member of the Triune is required for divinity. Muslims don't accept that.




    You were drawing a parallel between Muslims thinking Jesus was crucified and Jesus being divine.

    I was just pointing out that doesn't work that way.




    I said -- "...Islam in general does not think Jesus survived the crucifixion."

    You responded with, "So Islam, you say, accepts the divinity of Jesus."



    Based on my comment about Islam not thinking Jesus survived, why would you think Islam then accepted the divinity of Jesus? Am I reading your comment wrong? Did you mean something else?

    Believing Jesus was crucified has nothing to do with Jesus being divine. They just think he was a prophet who was executed.


    Well of course I'm the problem.

    Little digs and disses.

    Over and out.
    Tradition is not the worship of ashes, but the preservation of fire. ― Gustav Mahler

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris View Post
    Well of course I'm the problem.

    Little digs and disses.

    Over and out.
    I didn't say you were a problem.

    A lack of knowledge is nothing to be ashamed of. We all have to learn at some point. It's just that I've known this stuff since I was a kid, so I have a different understanding.

    I wasn't making any digs or disses.

    You can quit if you want -- it's getting more in-depth, but I was just trying to find out what it was about my comment that made you think Muslims would think Jesus was divine.

    At any rate, we've all learned something from this thread--myself included, and I think it's pretty fascinating.
    ""A government which robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul" ~George Bernard Shaw

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoisyBoy View Post
    Christians around the world are being jailed and beaten for there beliefs...
    Some of them are even being killed by airstrikes.
    Power always thinks it has a great soul, and vast views, beyond the comprehension of the weak. And that it is doing God service when it is violating all His laws.
    --John Adams

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    Quote Originally Posted by jes'fuchinwitcha View Post
    Interesting… A true Christian political leader would be a socialist, then?
    No. Socialists believe in compulsory redistribution of wealth, whereas Jesus believed in voluntary acts of charity and kindness. Not once did Jesus ever compel someone to be charitable. Indeed, compulsory charity is an oxymoron. True charity is always voluntary.
    Power always thinks it has a great soul, and vast views, beyond the comprehension of the weak. And that it is doing God service when it is violating all His laws.
    --John Adams

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoisyBoy View Post
    FK can deny it all she wants. She's on a personal mission to convince herself that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is a fairy tale. She's trying to get some consensus here to validate her unbelief. I say fine, if you don't believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God and was crucified and rose from the dead by the Father to give us all eternal life. That's your choice, nobody is going throw her in jail for it..However, the Christian persecution is real. Christians around the world are being jailed and beaten for there beliefs...It begins with mockery and then expressing a inordinate fear if a Christian gets in a position of power, (where we are now)..
    It is impossible to believe.

    First, Jesus failed to fulfill all the Messianic prophecies so how can he be The Anointed One?
    Crucified? Yes. Rose? Unlikely.

    Are Christians (and Jews) persecuted. Yes.
    Call your state legislators and insist they approve the Article V convention of States to propose amendments.


    I pledge allegiance to the Constitution as written and understood by this nation's founders, and to the Republic it created, an indivisible union of sovereign States, with liberty and justice for all.

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