Seal hunting: Adelaide vs. Chloe

[Adelaide]

It is my belief based on information provided by government agencies about the increase in the seal population starting in 1970, the regulations in place by the government which are fluid based on yearly data, and the humane way sealers are taught to kill seals that sealing in Canada should be permitted.

[Chloe]

There is nothing "humane" really about shooting and/or clubbing to death a seal for the sale of its fur. You can be taught 20 different ways to kill something but when it's being killed in exchange for profit then I don't see the humanity in it. Not to mention that the baby seals are often targeted because of their softer, lighter fur.

A couple of questions:

1. Other than the fur being taken off it's body what do the sealers typically do with the rest of the body? From the research i've done it seems like the fur is the main reason for the killing.

2. How does the Canadian government determine the number to be killed and who or what industry influences that decision?

[Adelaide]

There is nothing "humane" really about shooting and/or clubbing to death a seal for the sale of its fur. You can be taught 20 different ways to kill something but when it's being killed in exchange for profit then I don't see the humanity in it. Not to mention that the baby seals are often targeted because if their softer, lighter fur.

A couple of questions:

1. Other than the fur being taken off it's body what do the sealers typically do with the rest of the body? From the research i've done it seems like the fur is the main reason for the killing.

2. How does the Canadian government determine the number to be killed and who or what industry influences that decision?

Contrary to environmental/animal activists, clubbing a seal with a hakapik means instant death and when a rifle is used it's the same thing - training is essential. A lot of domesticated food sources aren't even treated that humanely. As well, "baby" seals are off limits - you can't kill whitecoats or bluebacks. Veterinarians have determined that the method of killing the seals is humane.

1. The meat and other products are sold to mostly Asian countries while the fur/pelt is mostly sold to European countries. Generally the animal is not wasted. A lot of communities that hunt seals do so because they have hardly no access to the mainland for supplies for most of the year (although, melting ice is changing that) and there are few other ways to make a living where the economy sucks/unemployment is high. The maritime provinces have unemployment problems where people rely on sealing and fishing.

2. The government keeps statistics on the amount of seals in our waters and it's estimated that 8 million are currently inhabiting our waters. They put regulations in place so as to avoid endangering the animals. So, for example, X amount are allowed to be hunted in a year or X in 3 years. As soon as that number is reached sealers are called off and told they are no longer able to hunt seals. As it is, the population has grown a lot since the 1970s so it's also a way to control the population. The government keeps a very close watch.

[Chloe]

Contrary to environmental/animal activists, clubbing a seal with a hakapik means instant death and when a rifle is used it's the same thing - training is essential. A lot of domesticated food sources aren't even treated that humanely. As well, "baby" seals are off limits - you can't kill whitecoats or bluebacks. Veterinarians have determined that the method of killing the seals is humane.

Ok but even the canadian governments website says that they are "usually" not hunted until they are 25 days old. That's less than one month old, that's a baby. Also it's assumed that the hunters training is great enough to provide instant death, but the reality is that practice and then doing it for real are two different things, especially considering that they are moving, alive, and showing emotion, All of which most likely reduces the odds of a perfect killing, especially with the club spike.

1. The meat and other products are sold to mostly Asian countries while the fur/pelt is mostly sold to European countries. Generally the animal is not wasted. A lot of communities that hunt seals due so because they have hardly no access to the mainland for supplies for most of the year (although, melting ice is changing that) and there are few other ways to make a living where the economy sucks/unemployment is high. The maritime provinces have unemployment problems where people rely on sealing and fishing.

If not for the demand of pelts the hunt probably would not be a commercial industry for the country. An inuit for example sustaining his family for months off of one seal is far different than the 400,000 seals that will be killed primarily for profit.

2. The government keeps statistics on the amount of seals in our waters and it's estimated that 8 million are currently inhabiting our waters. They put regulations in place so as to avoid endangering the animals. So, for example, X amount are allowed to be hunted in a year or X in 3 years. As soon as that number is reached sealers are called off and told they are no longer able to hunt seals. As it is, the population has grown a lot since the 1970s so it's also a way to control the population. The government keeps a very close watch.

The seal population grows because of the continued decline of its natural predators. Our hands across the globe and around Canadian waters kills, either on purpose or by accident, millions of varied marine animals each year, including predators, which makes the seal population rise and so then we kill them to control that population. One day when all of the natural predators are extinct we will control the seal population solely for industrial/commercial purposes and they will no longer be a part of nature but a part of our lifestyle. Population control is becoming more and more necessary because of our negative interactions with the natural world. Let the oceans recover from our actions and the seal population would be regulated by nature, and not by what's hot in fashion or in some asian food market.

[Chloe]

Hey @Adelaide I have to go shower and get ready for a class. I'll be back in a little bit

Keep going though and i'll respond later.

[Adelaide]

Ok but even the canadian governments website says that they are "usually" not hunted until they are 25 days old. That's less than one month old, that's a baby. Also it's assumed that the hunters training is great enough to provide instant death, but the reality is that practice and then doing it for real are two different things, especially considering that they are moving, alive, and showing emotion, All of which most likely reduces the odds of a perfect killing, especially with the club spike.

People who hunt seals do so for a long time and know what they're doing. Recreational seal hunting isn't anywhere close to the percentage of commercial seal hunting. As for the age of the animal; they allow a seal to be killed once it is no longer attached to its mother. There are plenty of non-marine animals killed in childhood for their meat. Veal, for example, is a common source of meat. Also, how old are fish when they're killed for food? Do we even know? Do we care?

If not for the demand of pelts the hunt probably would not be a commercial industry for the country. An inuit for example sustaining his family for months off of one seal is far different than the 400,000 seals that will be killed primarily for profit.

Actually, it still probably would be. As I pointed out, a lot of the communities which participate in the seal hunt are deeply affected by high levels of unemployment, unavailable resources due to ice, so forth. They rely on the hunt to sustain their families and communities as much as aboriginals do. Recently there are very few pelt traders interested, but a huge market for the meat in Asia. There is also a market for seal oil which has many health benefits.

The seal population grows because of the continued decline of its natural predators. Our hands across the globe and around Canadian waters kills, either on purpose or by accident, millions of varied marine animals each year, including predators, which makes the seal population rise and so then we kill them to control that population. One day when all of the natural predators are extinct we will control the seal population solely for industrial/commercial purposes and they will no longer be a part of nature but a part of our lifestyle. Population control is becoming more and more necessary because of our negative interactions with the natural world. Let the oceans recover from our actions and the seal population would be regulated by nature, and not by what's hot in fashion or in some asian food market.

The sealing industry is sustainable and actually conservation-minded. 350,000 is the max per year, by the way. According to the Ministry that overseas fishing and the seal hunt, the seals consume 12 million tonnes of fish - 10% of the world's harvest - which means fisherman are going to be completely up a creek unless seals are hunted and the population controlled. Unless you can find a way to solve global warming, you aren't going to find many predators that can handle them naturally. Sealing makes up a significant portion of income for many on the east coast - it's no different than commercial fishing except seals are cute animals so it must be inhumane and wrong.

[Chloe]

People who hunt seals do so for a long time and know what they're doing. Recreational seal hunting isn't anywhere close to the percentage of commercial seal hunting. As for the age of the animal; they allow a seal to be killed once it is no longer attached to its mother. There are plenty of non-marine animals killed in childhood for their meat. Veal, for example, is a common source of meat. Also, how old are fish when they're killed for food? Do we even know? Do we care?

It's pretty much all commercial seal hunting though. The roughly 400,000 seals that will be killed this year are primarily being killed for industry, and the main reason for the killing is not for the meat but for the fur. Even if it was for the meat I wouldn't be any less adamant about it being wrong, but still the main point if that this is killing for profit in my opinion. As for the other things I am against the meat industry anyway so things like veal and the like are already on my wrong list. To answer your question though, no, most people don't know or care, which is unfortunate in my mind.

Actually, it still probably would be. As I pointed out, a lot of the communities which participate in the seal hunt are deeply affected by high levels of unemployment, unavailable resources due to ice, so forth. They rely on the hunt to sustain their families and communities as much as aboriginals do. Recently there are very few pelt traders interested, but a huge market for the meat in Asia. There is also a market for seal oil which has many health benefits.

The seal oil for health benefits is also wrong in my opinion since there are plenty of alternatives that do not require the killing of another life in order to help sustain the health of another. As for the meat going to asia it's usually considered a delicacy, like bluefin tuna, and in my opinion that's not a good business to be associated with. Just because there may be demand in one part of the world for something unique like seal meat it doesn't mean that you have to accommodate them.

The sealing industry is sustainable and actually conservation-minded. 350,000 is the max per year, by the way. According to the Ministry that overseas fishing and the seal hunt, the seals consume 12 million tonnes of fish - 10% of the world's harvest - which means fisherman are going to be completely up a creek unless seals are hunted and the population controlled. Unless you can find a way to solve global warming, you aren't going to find many predators that can handle them naturally. Sealing makes up a significant portion of income for many on the east coast - it's no different than commercial fishing except seals are cute animals so it must be inhumane and wrong.

It's sustainable for business purposes but that's really it. If governments truly cared about sustaining a species they wouldn't take steps to diminish millions of other species, many of which interact and are interdependent on each other, including seals, which would then threaten the species that they have to then "sustain". Fisherman are not up the creek due to high seal populations, they are up the creek due to worldwide overfishing and worldwide damage to ecosystems causing the demand for seafood to keep going higher and higher. Millions of sharks are killed each year, many of those sharks are sharks that eat seals. Orca's are forced to travel further to find food leaving populations of seals safer from their hunting and leads to populations growing.

Here's a question for you: What are the main reasons that you are for seal hunting? How are you connected to it in a way that makes you a supporter?

[Adelaide]

It's pretty much all commercial seal hunting though. The roughly 400,000 seals that will be killed this year are primarily being killed for industry, and the main reason for the killing is not for the meat but for the fur. Even if it was for the meat I wouldn't be any less adamant about it being wrong, but still the main point if that this is killing for profit in my opinion. As for the other things I am against the meat industry anyway so things like veal and the like are already on my wrong list. To answer your question though, no, most people don't know or care, which is unfortunate in my mind.

350,000.

How can they kill primarily for the pelt when there is literally only one company willing to purchase them? The industry is now mainly based on selling meat and oil. Another reason pelts are not popular is because they aren't allowed to kill whitecoats. The entire hunt is monitored incredibly closely by the government on land, air and boat to ensure that whitecoats are not harmed, that sealers use the proper technique to humanely kill the seals, and to ensure that only as many as is permitted are killed.

The seal oil for health benefits is also wrong in my opinion since there are plenty of alternatives that do not require the killing of another life in order to help sustain the health of another. As for the meat going to asia it's usually considered a delicacy, like bluefin tuna, and in my opinion that's not a good business to be associated with. Just because there may be demand in one part of the world for something unique like seal meat it doesn't mean that you have to accommodate them.

Omega 3 is mainly available in meat. Fake alternatives like supplements are not the same - so yes, it is important that there is fresh seafood and other forms of animal products.

It's sustainable for business purposes but that's really it. If governments truly cared about sustaining a species they wouldn't take steps to diminish millions of other species, many of which interact and are interdependent on each other, including seals, which would then threaten the species that they have to then "sustain". Fisherman are not up the creek due to high seal populations, they are up the creek due to worldwide overfishing and worldwide damage to ecosystems causing the demand for seafood to keep going higher and higher. Millions of sharks are killed each year, many of those sharks are sharks that eat seals. Orca's are forced to travel further to find food leaving populations of seals safer from their hunting and leads to populations growing.

Do you know that fish are becoming more endangered every year because of seals? That seals consume so much that large populations in the Gulf of St Lawrence are literally disappearing? The seal is the apex predator in those waters that, if allowed to just go on its way, will wipe out species and make fishing harder than it already is, possibly impossible. Without the commercial hunt the ecosystem would be terribly out of sorts and fish stocks would plummet further. Either the government is going to cull the seal population or they'll be hunted and actually used for a purpose. And again, people rely on sealing to stay alive, housed, so forth. Fishing and sealing are a vital industry to the east coast where unemployment is significant.

[Adelaide]

Here's a question for you: What are the main reasons that you are for seal hunting? How are you connected to it in a way that makes you a supporter?

I'm for it because I know what it is and what the purpose of it is. My family, a part of it, landed in Newfoundland and Labrador. The poverty and unemployment is horrible. The seals, like any other animal, are hunted to supply the people, (with food, with money). There is an abundance of them, so much so they threaten other species. There is no predator other than the humans who can curb the population growth. It's done humanely - more so than in other industries involving animals for food - which has been established by internal and international veterinarians. There is even talk of getting certifications via training in order to hunt to reassure those who don't seem to understand.

I also believe most people have a problem with it because they believe activist propaganda. Such as that whitecoats are actively hunted. This is false. But they're cute animals when they haven't molted so it's awesome for those wanting to skew the facts.

[Chloe]

I'm sorry @Adelaide. I got hung up on some things yesterday and didn't really have enough time to sit down and give this the attention it needs. I got up early this morning to exercise like normal but i'll go ahead and respond to your posts above before I start that.