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Thread: Eugenics: Green Arrow vs. Cthulhu

  1. #11
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    I think Cthulhu's question end of post #4 Won the debate: "That aside, the goal is to improve humanity with superior genes no? What is the determining factor for that which is superior versus the inferior stock?"

    We just don't know this, not scientifically, not at all.

    Pretending we do, and trying to design humans, is pretty darned scary.
    Edmund Burke: "In vain you tell me that Artificial Government is good, but that I fall out only with the Abuse. The Thing! the Thing itself is the Abuse!"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu View Post
    True enough. Easy concept and plan. Nightmare to implement for a host of reasons. The Fairness Fairies would cannibalize whoever tried it.
    Easy solution there, too: ignore them.

    First thing is first. Definitions. What is the definition of ethics we're using to base this off of? Because not everybody has the same ethical inclinations.
    Start here.

    Also is it optional or not? Because if not, then hell no good sir, grab your torch and pitchfork.
    Why is that relevant? It's not like anyone is actually being hurt by forced sterilization/abortion. So you can't ever have kids. You're still alive and well.

    Alternatively, we could just relocate genetic violators and their offspring to one of the islands, like Madagascar. A sort of genetic quarantine.
    "Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least."
    - Eugene V. Debs (1855-1926), five-time Socialist Party candidate for U.S. President

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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Arrow View Post
    Easy solution there, too: ignore them.
    It could only work in a military dictatorship then. Ignored a voting base long enough tends to not work so well in a democracy or a republic.


    Start here.
    Not gonna lie. This doesn't help. Maybe I'm just dense.

    Why is that relevant? It's not like anyone is actually being hurt by forced sterilization/abortion. So you can't ever have kids. You're still alive and well.
    What endows someone with the authority to tell another that he or she is not inferior and thus not worthy to breed?

    Besides this would condemn senior citizens in some countries to death by eliminating a future support system I'm their old age - their offspring.

    Then there is the whole free will aspect and such...

    Alternatively, we could just relocate genetic violators and their offspring to one of the islands, like Madagascar. A sort of genetic quarantine.
    So how is this different from racial nationalism? Every region would have its "superior" set of genes. This would result in isolationism as far as gene flow is concerned.

    Sent from my evil cell phone.
    "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

    Ephesians 6:12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cthulhu View Post
    It could only work in a military dictatorship then. Ignored a voting base long enough tends to not work so well in a democracy or a republic.
    With our current electoral climate, they'd have to wait 2-8 years to get their people in a majority, and by then, we'd be on the path to accomplishment and wouldn't have to care anymore.

    Not gonna lie. This doesn't help. Maybe I'm just dense.
    Morally right or good.

    What endows someone with the authority to tell another that he or she is not inferior and thus not worthy to breed?

    Besides this would condemn senior citizens in some countries to death by eliminating a future support system I'm their old age - their offspring.

    Then there is the whole free will aspect and such...
    Not really. People can still adopt already existing children. Our orphanages and foster care systems are full of children without good homes.

    So how is this different from racial nationalism? Every region would have its "superior" set of genes. This would result in isolationism as far as gene flow is concerned.
    It would take some scientific investigation before it could be implemented, but we could allow some cross-pollination if we identify candidates from other regions who have good genes that we would like in our own gene pool, and vice versa.
    "Those who produce should have, but we know that those who produce the most that is, those who work hardest, and at the most difficult and most menial tasks, have the least."
    - Eugene V. Debs (1855-1926), five-time Socialist Party candidate for U.S. President

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    One way we circumvent natural selection in this country is by unduly protecting stupid people with warning labels for example. Subway plastic bags actually say "do not allow babies and small children to play with this bag" No $#@!! Who could possibly be old enough to be in charge of a child and NOT know that? And if they did what chance does their child have anyway? Or the expensive warnings on metal ladders about how they can be fallen from and conduct electricity

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    There are some people who should never have children...for the sake of the children as well as society. Even knowing that, I just can't see interference in this issue except to make the options to childbearing available. I knew someone who believed that everyone should be sterilized at birth...and could have it reversed upon proof of (emotional, financial, etc) ability to rear children. I thought he was a nut... sometimes I wonder...but I still can't support it.

    Thanks for an interesting debate on a controversial subject.

    gee, no screaming or cussing or snarking...very enjoyable!
    Last edited by PolWatch; 11-03-2014 at 08:07 AM. Reason: typo

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    Quote Originally Posted by PolWatch View Post
    There are some people who should never have children...for the sake of the children as well as society. Even knowing that, I just can't see interference in this issue except to make the options to childbearing available. I knew someone who believed that everyone should be sterilized at birth...and could have it reversed upon proof of (emotional, financial, etc) ability to rear children. I thought he was a nut... sometimes I wonder...but I still can't support it.

    Thanks for an interesting debate on a controversial subject.

    gee, no screaming or cussing or snarking...very enjoyable!
    While this approach would have most apparent advantages in the production of "trash" people being reduced the underlying issue of "who" gets to set the criteria would make it impossible to enact outside of a tyrannical dictatorship.
    My beliefs are a distillation of what I was taught as a child and what I observe as an adult.

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    Cthulhu's Avatar Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Green Arrow View Post
    With our current electoral climate, they'd have to wait 2-8 years to get their people in a majority, and by then, we'd be on the path to accomplishment and wouldn't have to care anymore.
    Sure they would. The USA has a lot of guns in it.

    [/quote]
    Morally right or good.[/quote]

    Subjective values are not a good rubric to base this on.


    Not really. People can still adopt already existing children. Our orphanages and foster care systems are full of children without good homes.
    Most people prefer to have their own biological children, hence we still have overcrowded foster systems.

    It would take some scientific investigation before it could be implemented, but we could allow some cross-pollination if we identify candidates from other regions who have good genes that we would like in our own gene pool, and vice versa.
    Conceded on this point.
    "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

    Ephesians 6:12

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    A stain that can't be washed away

    Quote Originally Posted by Green Arrow View Post
    @Cthulhu, let's begin. First, I'll establish the definition of eugenics.

    Eugenics is a social philosophy advocating the improvement of the genetic "pool" of humanity. At its foundation, eugenics improves the gene pool simply by encouraging those with good genes to reproduce, and discouraging those with bad genes from reproducing. There have been many different eugenic methods over the course of the philosophy's existence, the most extreme example being the twisted and corrupted ideal of eugenics used by the Nazis, which completely forgoes the concept of improving the human gene pool and instead seeks to completely eliminate non-Aryan races. It is a $#@!ization of eugenics and will not come into this discussion.

    Cthulhu, the opening statement is yours.
    (My bold)

    Well, except that the Nazis took their notions of eugenics from the US & from the Brits. See
    War against the weak: eugenics and America's campaign to create a master race /
    by Black, Edwin.
    New York : Four Walls Eight Windows, c2003.
    Subjects  Eugenics -- United States -- History.
     Sterilization (Birth control) -- United States.
     Human reproduction -- Government policy -- United States.
     United States -- Social policy.
     United States -- Moral conditions.
    Description:
    xxviii, 550 p., [14] p. of plates : ill. ; 24 cm.

    The US had been in the forefront of eugenics for a time, to the extent that sympathizers & proponents gained control of the IN state prison & sterilized inmates without any consent or notice, nor any controlling legislation from the IN Lege (which was nearly overrun with KKK@ the time - perhaps a partial explanation). But eugenics was strong in the NE too, the South - where families with histories of sloth, criminality, mental defectives, poverty, inconvenience (this was the '20s, remember) were also sterilized. The official eugenics orgs & organs were elated @ their success in Germany, so much so that they became concerned that the US/UK were falling behind.

    & so it goes. Excellent reading, but not for the faint of heart.

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