Ukraine's Neo-Nazis Won't Get U.S. Money

[Peter1469]

The US did instigate this conflict, but nevertheless Russia wanted to use the Ukraine as a buffer between itself and the West.

I have a long post on it in Polly's blog- about the new Cold War. Where I argue it isn't a Cold War but rather a return to pre- WWI great power politics. @IMPress Polly

I even include the distances between NATO and Moscow at various points in history. Russia is wise to be wary. But the West should understand that Russia has no ability to project force for any relevant period of time. Outside of their nuclear forces, they are impotent.

There has always been a lot of war in that region, but this war was instigated by the US government in cooperation with their NATO allies. Russia is not expansionist and is not aggressing against the west. They thought that if they dissolved the Soviet Union, the US government would stop trying to subvert Russian sovereignty, and that we could be partners on the global stage, but the US government has totally violated that trust by breaking their promise and attempting to expand NATO towards Russia's borders. I am floored by how horribly our relations have deteriorated since the early 1990's.

[Mister D]

@Dr. Who this is what I mean about Russian sentiment. It's European but it's not European. There's a historical tension there that can be traced, IMO, to the Mongol depredations of the 13th Century which cut Russia off from the Church and Christendom generally. They developed an identity in isolation from the west.

[Dr. Who]

@Dr. Who this is what I mean about Russian sentiment. It's European but it's not European. There's a historical tension there that can be traced, IMO, to the Mongol depredations of the 13th Century which cut Russia off from the Church and Christendom generally. They developed an identity in isolation from the west.

The churches of the eastern rite were and are no less Christian than that of the RCC. The Russian Orthodox church was sustained underground throughout the secularization of communism and has re-emerged and is growing in strength and popularity. I'm not sure I understand your distinction of the Russian people as being particularly different from the rest of Europe, except for their extraordinary ability to survive despite overwhelming odds. They are definitely a tough and resilient people.

[Mister D]

The churches of the eastern rite were and are no less Christian than that of the RCC. The Russian Orthodox church was sustained underground throughout the secularization of communism and has re-emerged and is growing in strength and popularity. I'm not sure I understand your distinction of the Russian people as being particularly different from the rest of Europe, except for their extraordinary ability to survive despite overwhelming odds. They are definitely a tough and resilient people.

Of course they were no less Christian. What I'm saying is that Russia was essentially isolated from the west for centuries and thus developed differently as a civilization quite unlike Poland or Hungary, for example, which remained within the western orbit. The pull between east and west is a distinct feature of Russian history and intellectual life. Earlier, I had pointed to the Slavophile movement as an example of a cultural and psychological withdrawal from the west. You mentioned the Orthodox Church and that is also an excellent example of a very introverted Russian institution.

[Dr. Who]

Of course they were no less Christian. What I'm saying is that Russia was essentially isolated from the west for centuries and thus developed differently as a civilization quite unlike Poland or Hungary, for example, which remained within the western orbit. The pull between east and west is a distinct feature of Russian history and intellectual life. Earlier, I had pointed to the Slavophile movement as an example of a cultural and psychological withdrawal from the west. You mentioned the Orthodox Church and that is also an excellent example of a very introverted Russian institution.

I suspect that you are really alluding to the concept of sobornost - that mixture of communal life based common religion, common heritage and common traditions. While Russia may have retained that much longer than western Europe, both perhaps because of its isolation, but also because of its largely agricultural nature that would have produced a significant inter-dependency between the denizens of the many remote Russian villages, with the church and faith as the core, I don't feel that it is a uniquely Russian experience. It just persisted longer in Russia than in the west.

Western Europe faced population pressures that also changed the nature of rural life producing increased demands for food and means of making a living, with people often leaving their traditional roots to find a better life and work elsewhere. Certainly feudal life was no longer viable by the 17th century in western Europe, but continued well into the 19th century in Russia. Feudal farms were simply not very efficient at producing sufficient crops. Serfdom however served to maintain order in Russia and minimize rebellion notwithstanding the Cossacks' best efforts, as well as fill the military need for soldiers. Not surprisingly revolution occurred after the abolition of serfdom in Russia.

While the Slavophiles may have waxed nostalgic about sobornost, they did not believe in serfdom, but it is questionable whether this idyllic life would have persisted, but for serfdom, which restricted the movement of people who were essentially the property of the state.

[Mister D]

I suspect that you are really alluding to the concept of sobornost - that mixture of communal life based common religion, common heritage and common traditions. While Russia may have retained that much longer than western Europe, both perhaps because of its isolation, but also because of its largely agricultural nature that would have produced a significant inter-dependency between the denizens of the many remote Russian villages, with the church and faith as the core, I don't feel that it is a uniquely Russian experience. It just persisted longer in Russia than in the west.

Western Europe faced population pressures that also changed the nature of rural life producing increased demands for food and means of making a living, with people often leaving their traditional roots to find a better life and work elsewhere. Certainly feudal life was no longer viable by the 17th century in western Europe, but continued well into the 19th century in Russia. Feudal farms were simply not very efficient at producing sufficient crops. Serfdom however served to maintain order in Russia and minimize rebellion notwithstanding the Cossacks' best efforts, as well as fill the military need for soldiers. Not surprisingly revolution occurred after the abolition of serfdom in Russia.

While the Slavophiles may have waxed nostalgic about sobornost, they did not believe in serfdom, but it is questionable whether this idyllic life would have persisted, but for serfdom, which restricted the movement of people who were essentially the property of the state.

I'm simply referring to a persistently ambiguous Russian attitude toward the west and toward the outside world generally. Russian culture is an insular culture and Russians have displayed a marked tendency to look inward.

[Dr. Who]

I'm simply referring to a persistently ambiguous Russian attitude toward the west and toward the outside world generally. Russian culture is an insular culture and Russians have displayed a marked tendency to look inward.

I think that it's had insular periods in it's history and perhaps that has had some affect on its attitude, but perhaps its physical location and vast size has had as much to do with that as anything else. It's monarchy certainly wasn't insular and brought western ideology to Russia. Ironically feudalism was a western notion. I do however agree that the Russian people had less contact with the west, simply because its people were spread out over vast distances. Perhaps more importantly, the schism between the RCC and the Eastern Orthodox Church after the sacking of Constantinople left a certain bitterness regarding the RCC and everything western. This resulted in some cultural differences, since the RCC actually promoted certain western ideology. To a degree, disdain for the RCC was conflated with western ideology. For that reason, while the Poles are certainly Slavs, they, unlike Ukrainians, were/are viewed with some antipathy given that they are Roman Catholics. However religion can be a great divider, and that can contribute to the notion of difference. I would suggest however that the era of communism and the Cold War created a power struggle between Russia and the west that persists to this day and has inspired a certain Russian nationalism and suspicion on the part of westerners regarding Russia's geopolitical intentions and conversely a sense on the part of Russia and its people that the west does not have their best interests at heart. Insular or defensive?

[Mister D]

I think that it's had insular periods in it's history and perhaps that has had some affect on its attitude, but perhaps its physical location and vast size has had as much to do with that as anything else. It's monarchy certainly wasn't insular and brought western ideology to Russia. Ironically feudalism was a western notion. I do however agree that the Russian people had less contact with the west, simply because its people were spread out over vast distances. Perhaps more importantly, the schism between the RCC and the Eastern Orthodox Church after the sacking of Constantinople left a certain bitterness regarding the RCC and everything western. This resulted in some cultural differences, since the RCC actually promoted certain western ideology. To a degree, disdain for the RCC was conflated with western ideology. For that reason, while the Poles are certainly Slavs, they, unlike Ukrainians, were/are viewed with some antipathy given that they are Roman Catholics. However religion can be a great divider, and that can contribute to the notion of difference. I would suggest however that the era of communism and the Cold War created a power struggle between Russia and the west that persists to this day and has inspired a certain Russian nationalism and suspicion on the part of westerners regarding Russia's geopolitical intentions and conversely a sense on the part of Russia and its people that the west does not have their best interests at heart. Insular or defensive?

Well, yes, I think the geography of Russia helped facilitate that mentality. One could retreat into the depths and forests of Russia both figuratively and quite literally.

Undoubtedly, the Cold War had a great impact on the cultural exchange between east and west but, in the case of Russia, I think the Cold War was but one major episode among several over the course of her history that reflected Russia's distrust of westerners. I agree that Russia's insularity is in part a defensive posture.

Of course you know I disagree that religion is divisive overall. You assume that human populations would otherwise be united were it not for a difference in religion. There simply isn't any reason to believe that. Religion is , for example, what made the west a cultural unit. Without Christianity, Europe would be nothing more than a geographical term as it was prior to the advent of Christianity.

[The Sage of Main Street]

Anyone who has been paying attention to the conflict in Ukraine knows that the political and military successes of the illegal Poroshenko regime have hinged largely on the participation of neo-Nazis - in particular, a unit called the "Azov battalion".

The New York Times even reported on them back in February of 2015, euphemistically referring to them as a "volunteer unit", conveniently omitting the well-known fact that they are neo-Nazis.



This bill, which bans support and training for the Azov neo-Nazis, is a step in the right direction, but barely addresses the underlying problem of the illegality and secrecy of the US campaign against the disenfranchised eastern Ukrainians.

It also seems like it is "too little, too late", as the Azov neo-Nazis have been intimately involved in the west's campaign since the very beginning. Why did it take the Congress so long to do this? I leave that to you to figure out.

Don't cosset the Cossacks. Ukraine has never been a country before and won't be one much longer.

[Bob]

One interesting way to see Russia is immigration

It is well known that Russians, both pre and post the cold war, immigrated to the USA

Lesser known, if at all, how many American's chose to immigrate to Russia?

The feet do the talking better than words can.