Minimum Wage

[Green Arrow]

I'd like to have a debate on the minimum wage. As always, stupid partisans that don't have anything substantive to say will not be allowed to derail this debate.

We'll start off with two questions:

1) Do you support raising the minimum wage? If so, by how much? If not, why not?

2) Is there any alternative to raising the minimum wage? If so, please detail your alternative. If not, why not?

[Captain Obvious]

Great topic.

Here's my viewpoint, it's kind of split.

On one hand the economist in me wants to see market wages. Real market wages but we don't live in a free market, not by a longshot. The concept of "free markets" is a myth, always has been ever since the dawn of time. Cavemen trading spearheads for skins would be the only thing close to a free market example that I can think of.

There has always been class, power, influence impacting markets to the advantage of those who possess class, power and influence. Sorry, there is nothing free about a market that is influenced by power and privilege.

So... minimum wage. What is market wages?

In a society that is wholly free and distribution of wealth isn't influenced by any one economic demographic I think labor, especially unskilled labor is priced much higher than it is now. Much, much higher because those producing wealth at it's lowest point is fairly important in this model. These are the people that are making $#@!. Line laborers would do much better than they do now, so given that part of me wants to see this natural equilibrium. In reality, those who possess wealth and power shift this balance so that labor is forced. Slavery in a sense, economic slavery.

On the flip side, in this imbalanced economy, market wages say flipping cheeseburgers demands $8/hour or whatever. Forcing that wage up unnaturally is going to impact something, some demographic. The unskilled, poor demographic benefits no doubt but who pays for it?

The wealthy? $#@! no, it's the middle class, the segment of our economy who shoulders most of the economic burden, the wealthy will continue to prosper from any of these models.

So, @Green Arrow - to address your question, I can't. Not in our current model. And it's not changing. If you consider yourself the middle class, pucker up. You're footing the bill either way.

[Green Arrow]

Great topic.

Here's my viewpoint, it's kind of split.

On one hand the economist in me wants to see market wages. Real market wages but we don't live in a free market, not by a longshot. The concept of "free markets" is a myth, always has been ever since the dawn of time. Cavemen trading spearheads for skins would be the only thing close to a free market example that I can think of.

There has always been class, power, influence impacting markets to the advantage of those who possess class, power and influence. Sorry, there is nothing free about a market that is influenced by power and privilege.

So... minimum wage. What is market wages?

In a society that is wholly free and distribution of wealth isn't influenced by any one economic demographic I think labor, especially unskilled labor is priced much higher than it is now. Much, much higher because those producing wealth at it's lowest point is fairly important in this model. These are the people that are making $#@!. Line laborers would do much better than they do now, so given that part of me wants to see this natural equilibrium. In reality, those who possess wealth and power shift this balance so that labor is forced. Slavery in a sense, economic slavery.

On the flip side, in this imbalanced economy, market wages say flipping cheeseburgers demands $8/hour or whatever. Forcing that wage up unnaturally is going to impact something, some demographic. The unskilled, poor demographic benefits no doubt but who pays for it?

The wealthy? $#@! no, it's the middle class, the segment of our economy who shoulders most of the economic burden, the wealthy will continue to prosper from any of these models.

So, @Green Arrow - to address your question, I can't. Not in our current model. And it's not changing. If you consider yourself the middle class, pucker up. You're footing the bill either way.

What about gradually raising it over a period of time, rather than raising it high all at once? For example, the Economic Policy Institute (as well as I think Bernie Sanders) advocates raising the minimum wage to $12 by 2020, so over a period of five years. It's basically raising it $1 a year for five years.

Do you think gradually raising it in such a way would give the market and businesses time to adjust to it and avoid any ill effects?

[Captain Obvious]

What about gradually raising it over a period of time, rather than raising it high all at once? For example, the Economic Policy Institute (as well as I think Bernie Sanders) advocates raising the minimum wage to $12 by 2020, so over a period of five years. It's basically raising it $1 a year for five years.

Do you think gradually raising it in such a way would give the market and businesses time to adjust to it and avoid any ill effects?

The establishment is based on power and influence. That's what makes the whole argument of "the democrats are for the working guy" such a joke, teh O'bama and Hillary and all of them are nothing more than paid $#@!s for the wealthy class.

And if you even mention "wealth redistribution" all of the Rushbot Eichmann's all get whipped up into a frenzy even though they're just pushing buttons for minimum wage anyway, that's the power of propaganda.

It won't happen, to the degree that you're suggesting. When in the history of mankind has there ever been a fair, equal distribution of production and wealth? Never, loaded question. Minimum wage can be propped up unnaturally in an unnatural economy but the mole that gets whacked pops up in the middle class's court, it's not popping up in the wealthy class's court.

So this charade continues on until the economy collapses and we start all over again.

Look to your history books to see this proof.

[Cletus]

Wages should be a matter negotiated by employee and employer. There should be no minimum wage. If an employer offers a wage and the employee believes it to be insufficient, he has the option of negotiating a higher wage or going to work elsewhere.

If an employer continually offers a substandard wage, he will soon find himself without the number or quality of employees he needs in order for his business to be successful ad he will have little choice but to increase the wage he offers or watch his business fail.

[Green Arrow]

The establishment is based on power and influence. That's what makes the whole argument of "the democrats are for the working guy" such a joke, teh O'bama and Hillary and all of them are nothing more than paid $#@!s for the wealthy class.

And if you even mention "wealth redistribution" all of the Rushbot Eichmann's all get whipped up into a frenzy even though they're just pushing buttons for minimum wage anyway, that's the power of propaganda.

It won't happen, to the degree that you're suggesting. When in the history of mankind has there ever been a fair, equal distribution of production and wealth? Never, loaded question. Minimum wage can be propped up unnaturally in an unnatural economy but the mole that gets whacked pops up in the middle class's court, it's not popping up in the wealthy class's court.

So this charade continues on until the economy collapses and we start all over again.

Look to your history books to see this proof.

To be clear, then, you would not support gradually raising the minimum wage to $12 by 2020?

[Green Arrow]

Wages should be a matter negotiated by employee and employer. There should be no minimum wage. If an employer offers a wage and the employee believes it to be insufficient, he has the option of negotiating a higher wage or going to work elsewhere.

If an employer continually offers a substandard wage, he will soon find himself without the number or quality of employees he needs in order for his business to be successful ad he will have little choice but to increase the wage he offers or watch his business fail.

In an ideal world I'm sure that position works out perfectly. We do not live in an ideal world, however. American workers simply don't have the option to just find another place to work in an economy where there are substantially more workers than there are jobs and "negotiating" for a better wage often ends up with the employee being forced to find work elsewhere.

[Subdermal]

The premise of the Minimum Wage is that the Government must interfere with what two parties would otherwise freely decide for themselves what is just for services rendered. By definition, that is intrusive and unjust.

If I want to work for $3/hr - because I have an ulterior motive, for instance, to learn a specific skill that I would otherwise not have the ability to learn - it should be my business.

Beyond that, I believe the issue is simply another leg of Centralized Control, which hasn't demonstrated any competence at all in managing an economy to the maximum benefit of the people.

The economy is cyclical, by anyone's view of it. It cannot be avoided. It is so complex, however, that the only innocuous control of it emanates from the participants in it. One need look no further than the robust growth in the economy under Bush II, after accelerating EGGTRA with JGGTRA - after 2003 - when places like McDonald's literally could not fill work positions, and were forced to advertise for these spots @ $11/hr and above.

That is an example of an economy regulating its own wages.

Like it or not, the simplest and best way for an economy to allow itself to correct is to allow participants in that economy to lower wages as it needs in order to correct imbalances in supply and demand. Parallel to such a policy should be the parallel cultural policy to save - to have a nest egg to endure down cycles. This ideology is strong in Asian cultures, and should likewise be here.

Savings smooths economic downturns, and avoids unnecessary debt. These are variables which will ease the volatility of the boom/bust of economics; it is the only way to truly accurately do so.

It is my belief that if apparatchiks are left to decide the value of certain positions, they inevitably create an imbalance in wage/cost structures, and simply inflate the problem of unemployment and costs of living.

These are games that Big Government types play; they require the needy in order to justify their high taxes and presence - thus continuing the cycle.

Leave it be. There is no need for something that can be decided upon between two parties on their own.

[Subdermal]

In an ideal world I'm sure that position works out perfectly. We do not live in an ideal world, however. American workers simply don't have the option to just find another place to work in an economy where there are substantially more workers than there are jobs and "negotiating" for a better wage often ends up with the employee being forced to find work elsewhere.

Your response is not an answer. It is simply a claim that - because we do not live in an 'ideal' world - (somehow) Cletus' position is inferior to yours, when you given no substantiation for that assertion.

How do you know, for instance, that support of a minimum wage hasn't led to additional 'imperfections' which you note?

[Green Arrow]

Your response is not an answer. It is simply a claim that - because we do not live in an 'ideal' world - (somehow) Cletus' position is inferior to yours, when you given no substantiation for that assertion.

I didn't make any comparison between my position and Cletus'. I simply offered facts - American workers cannot just go out and find other work in an economy where there are substantially more workers than there is work, particularly when we are constantly importing something like a million more people a year from other countries, and without some organization supporting employees they cannot just go and negotiate for better wages without the potential of being fired for daring to think they were worth more than they were being paid. I happen to be lucky, my company is a great company and the owner of our franchise has built in plenty of tools for us to grow in his business and make more money, almost completely at our own discretion. Not all companies are like that, however.